Tuesday, January 8, 2013

Make an Offer

An anonymous source sent me the content of the offer letter for the assets of Brio Birth, asking that it be published in toto.


To Whom It May Concern:

My name is Karl Clinger. I began working with Brio Birth in April of 2010 to assist in the area of technology. Already, there were many who had contributed their time and efforts to the intellectual property of Brio Birth, like the workbook and articles for the website. Nobody had a solid contract, but I was not willing to work without any terms to protect my investment of both time and money. So, I required that ownership of company assets (at the time) at least up to the value of my contributions would be retained.

Contractually, I own several domains for Brio Birth, including briobirth.com. Web tracking statistics show that this domain has more traffic than any other childbirth education related site. I also own all of the intellectual property of Brio Birth, which includes the social media. The Facebook page has almost 25,000 likes. Compare that to Lamaze with 2,200 and Bradley Method’s 5,635 likes. In short, my assets includes anything produced by the efforts of Brio Birth (like the highly esteemed Brio Birth Workbook). 

These terms were executed in a contract predating any judgments against Brio Birth, LLC. Kyle Thomas, CEO of Brio Birth, LLC, signed the agreement fully intending for me to be involved with much more growth than even has been realized. I had an amazing idea that I felt would benefit the company, but a difference in business philosophies has encouraged me to go in a different direction. I already have an impressive short list of very capable, well respected people in the birth community who could take over and make Brio Birth what I know it should be. I have also spoken with a few organizations that feel they could benefit greatly from one or more of the assets listed above. Therefore, I am writing this letter to several organizations that could possibly benefit from any of the assets listed above.

Alexa.com has briobirth.com ranked 1,890,844 globally. (The higher the number is the better.) Compare that to 628,618 for Lamaze and 1,130,559 for bradleybirth.com. Estimations of the value of facebook likes vary. On the low end, it is estimated that a facebook like is worth between $50 and $100.  Higher, corporate, estimations put the value of a facebook like at an average of $137.84. At the most conservative estimates, the Brio Birth facebook page is worth $1,250,000. Websites with similar metrics and comparisons within their own industry sell anywhere from $200,000 to $10,000,000. Rights to the workbook alone could produce massive retail sales or be used to improve existing materials of any childbirth education company. It is considered by most in the birth community to be the best manual available.

I apologize for my delay in writing this letter. The most recent development with the Thomases is that they will now be operating under Brio Birth, LLC. I am not sure what they will sell and how they will operate, because I am the only one with administrative access to any of the hosting, email and social media accounts. I have a contract signed by Kyle Thomas giving me sole ownership of the assets described in this email. 

I would like to cash out. However, in the absence of a suitable offer I will enlist the services of very qualified birth professionals who will use these assets as a starting point to make an organization like Brio Birth was supposed to be.

Sincerely,

Karl Clinger

I will note that I have reason to believe that this was distributed before Karl renounced rights to the Brio Birth workbook.  That said, I am concerned that someone citing alexa rankings in order to make a sales pitch is not aware that a lower ranking on alexa.com is better than a higher one.  Consider the rankings of
babiesrus.com (21,598), babycenter.com (757), or facebook.com (2).  I am also a bit leery of the value of a Facebook like, but would like to note that if anyone is interested, the Birth Scam Report Facebook page is worth at least $50,000.  Humor aside, I could see some value, if not the above stated estimates, if the likes were of good quality, likely to turn into some sort of sale, or at least ad revenue.  Many of the likes on Brio Birth are not of that quality, though, and this should be taken into consideration.

I'm afraid that in many ways, Brio Birth is not much more than an albatross.  I strongly agree with the camp that encourages simply shutting it all down.  If the Thomases plan to continue operating under Brio Birth, LLC, maybe Kyle would be interested in purchasing the domains and Facebook pages back. He might be able to find an investor somewhere.

208 comments:

  1. Karl, would you please comment on this? It is understandable that you'd like to walk away without losing everything you invested, but so would all the other hundreds of people who poured endless hours, their hearts, souls and lives into it and then got completely screwed over, lied to and stolen from. I'd love to see what you have to say about this. Thanks.

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  2. I have a sneaking suspicion that this letter of Karl's was written before all the revelations of yesterday. I hope that by now, Karl has a better understanding that there's just not a whole lot of undisputed IP in Brio Birth, except for what he personally paid for over the last year. Almost EVERYTHING was created by the teachers and the regional reps who were never paid, never acknowledged or given credit, never signed releases. Trying to sell all the IP that Brio "produced" prior to your arrival, Karl, would lead to nothing but headaches for you; almost ALL of it could be contested for ownership, sadly. I'm afraid you may be trying to sell some prime swampland property in Florida.

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  3. I just did a quick google search and you can buy 20,000 Facebook likes for $339 online. $1,250,000 is a bit much.

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  4. Not a math genius, but...January 8, 2013 at 8:00 AM

    Unless there is solid evidence that Facebook likes translate into income for a company, I fail to see how they can have much, if any value at all. You may recall the R.I.P. Bill Cosby page that went up last year, even though Bill Cosby was alive and well, and got well over 300,000 likes in two days. According to Karl's math and reasoning, the individual who created that page earned over $43,419,600 for himself in two days. Sure wish I had thought of that - then we could pay off the mortgage and take that vacation.

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  5. I never believed there numbers were going up that quickly on their own. Did Karl pay for the likes, or did he know that Kyle was somehow paying for them? I do not know if it is against facebook policy to buy likes, but it certainly seems unethical to buy them for $339 and then claim they are worth so much more in selling the company.

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    1. Read the blog post about stolen IPJanuary 8, 2013 at 11:15 AM

      I don't think they bought the likes...I think they were gathered by posting stolen IP like the video of the little boy getting choclear implants turned on.

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  6. Ummmmm, April of 2010?? That predates EVERYTHING -- the original survey; Bradley Reborn fiasco; Ellen's presidency. Are you going to stick to that date and that statement?

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    1. I'm sure that must have been a typo - April 2011 fits the bill. I know it's tempting to nitpick everything! As an engineer, I do a lot of nitpicking. :-)

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    2. This was a typo and you are correct, Ellen. I sent out several of these interest letters, but this typo was only in the one I sent to Jay Hathaway at the AAHCC. (So much for the anonymous source, eh Robert?) This was written prior to all of our discussions in this blog. One of my biggest motivations for not shutting it all down is because that is what the Hathaways want. If they really want that then they can pay for that. I am not convinced that somebody could do some good with the social media. Perhaps it will be somebody who has some skin in the game.

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    3. I don't understand the obstinate attitude against the Hathaways. Can you please explain why anything they want, you want to do the opposite of?

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    4. I am also curious about this. Angela has posted some good points, which you refuse to take to heart solely because they came from her. I suspect that if anyone else had written the same things, you would have received them very differently.

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  7. So that explains how they got all those "lies" I mean "likes" . . .

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  8. The sad thing is that the generational inability of the hathaways to communicate effectively and engage in ad hominem attacks (predating Brio) is why no one trusted their warnings in the first place. If Karl and Ivy are sincere then I hope they will end the Brio madness. Ignore the Hathaways. They dont actually know anything about the Brio IP issues that is useful.

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  9. I'm sorry, but I cringed when I saw this. Kyle was always all over Alexa, and it gave me flashbacks. :-( Karl, if you got your information from Kyle, please know that he is not the marketing or business expert that he claims to be (though, like me, you probably figured this out the hard way over a much longer time than you wish it had been), and I think half his stuff is made up. I think he just read a Jim Collins book and decided he was an expert.

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  10. I tried to reach out to them with some comments but the email address is no longer recieving emails... FYI

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  11. Wow Karl, this is just rich. Now it is abundantly clear to me what your true intentions were. While this may have been written prior to the other conversations yesterday, you still have no clue and are just wanting to make a profit of all those that were emotionally and financially harmed by the Thomases. I stand corrected in my assumption that you were coming clean and pushing forward. Actually, I felt yesterday really strange and odd and that there was something more coming from you. So, Karl, I have absolutely no more respect for you or Brio Birth. I thought you were the breath of fresh air this thing needed to set it all right and this letter just shows you are attempting something even bigger. You, dear sir, are no better than Kyle.

    And as to the conversation about being proud of one's spouse...oh hell, if you were my spouse and had sent out this letter to people to make money off of something you shouldn't even be considering making off of, yeah I'd not be proud of you either. I am proud and blessed to be married to my husband. I'll admit I might not always feel this way. I'm not proud b/c he got out of bed this morning and went to work. No, I'm proud to have him as my husband because he has enough sense to know that this is wrong. Do you not have morals man?

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    1. Stacy,

      I wish you knew more about me and my intentions. I did make this a matter of prayer back when you had suggested it. The answer I received was, "Not yet." That answer has changed. Now I am searching everything out in my mind so that I can show God that I have done my due diligence. I have fasted to for guidance. I feel that many of the my requests have been answered already with the willingness of many here to discuss this openly and help me make an informed decision. You made a sincere request of me, now I am making one to you. Keep an open mind and be part of the answer.

      Delete
  12. Let's not pretend anymore. Notice that I am not responding directly to "Anonymous." Here is the email I received and responded to yesterday.


    From: jay@aahcc.com
    To: kclinger5@hotmail.com
    CC: robert@hathawayfam.com; 76212.345@compuserve.com
    Subject: RE: Asset Interest Letter
    Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 19:47:59 -0800

    Karl Clinger



    Sir:

    Last week you called me. I did not call you. You made several claims, later confirmed in your email of Friday, January 4, 2013.

    You claimed you own ALL the assets of the former Brio Birth. You claimed to own and control their old Student Workbook, and all their web sites, and all their social media sites.

    You made the claim that their intellectual properties were worth in excess of one or two MILLION dollars, and implied that you might sell us all these ‘assets’ - for the assignment to yourself of the judgment pending against Brio Birth, Kyle Thomas, Naomi Thomas and Ellen Contard. This judgment would appear to be worth in excess of $140.000 plus interest, etc. While this amount may prove to be ‘uncollectable’ at present, but you implied you had access to ways to collect that we might not.

    You also told me that you were not Kyle Thomas, you were not ‘like’ Kyle Thomas, in fact did not ‘like’ Kyle Thomas.

    You offered to send me contractual evidence of your ownership of their assets, which you claimed to own in an iron-clad sort of contract.

    I offered to consider your submission after, and only after, our attorneys confirmed the standing you claimed. You said you would email me the signed contract that very evening. You did not.

    On Sunday you sent another email, you attacked my family, calling some of them ‘hateful’ or at least calling their communications ‘hateful’.

    I hope to avoid being labeled as hateful, but your failure to supply the evidence you offered, is disappointing.

    If you think you have something to sell or trade, you must be clear and specific.

    I am unclear about your possible standing in our federal lawsuit and the sizeable judgment pending.

    I am unclear about your ownership of anything, including Embrion Group which, I understand, had your corporate status in Nevada revoked (please correct me if I am wrong).

    I await the evidence of your actual ownership of those assets you claim.





    Jay Hathaway



    cc. Robert Hathaway

    ===========================================================================

    There it is. I have been very clear that I am trying to keep my options open. Please let me know if there is anything incorrect about what I have written.

    Thanks,


    Karl Clinger

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    1. Since Robert has declared fair game on private communication between me and the Hathaways, here is my response, too. Please let me know if there is anything incorrect.


      Jay,

      There are a few things that I have determined not to say about people, no matter how I feel about them. One of those this is that I do not like somebody. I do not remember making such a statement and I am certain that I never made the such a statement about Kyle Thomas. Do not jump to any conclusion about my affinity towards him, but that is not something I would say.

      It is true that I have exclusive access to all of the social media of Brio Birth. However, I have heard from the Chief Editor of that manual, Ellen Contard, and I was compelled to understand that Kyle and Naomi Thomas, nor Brio Birth, ever owned the manual. Subsequent to my email response to you this morning is when I came to that conclusion. Therefore, I regret to confirm that I do own the workbook. I could provide a soft copy to your that is not the printer's edition, but I do not have any grounds to sell that to you. I also own ALL of the domains for briobirth, including briobirth.com, briobirth.net, briobirth.org, briobirth.biz, briobirth.co, briobirth.info, briobirth.mobi, briobirth.name, briobirth.us and briobirth.tv. I also own brio.pro, naturalbirth.us and naturalbirth.pro. The only thing I do not own is the name "Brio Birth." The Thomases, contractually, could still operate as Brio Birth, LLC. That company is entirely owned by Kyle and Naomi Thomas. For your purposes, you could rename the Brio Birth facebook page (along with other social media) to Bradley Birth and assume nearly a 5 times larger audience. Your reach (friends of fans) would immediately be in the millions, instead of thousands.

      Your information about the status of Embrion Group, Inc. being revoked is also valid. The paperwork was filed properly, but paperwork was not submitted and maintained properly and the status changed. This is easy enough to rectify, but the assets belong to me personally. I had retained the services of Kyle and Naomi Thomas to develop trainings and maintain Embrion Group, Inc. Because I had purchased rights to "unlimited and exclusive" use to the name Brio Birth and I owned the assets I could have them work work as contractors to improve the materials and organize trainings. I was not involved in any of the day to day activities. I had determined to give the Thomases until the end of 2012 to turn a profit. When it became clear that they were not going to do so, and if they had they would not pay debts, I cut them out. I am within my right to do so.

      As you are unclear about my involvement in your judgement, let me be very clear. I am not involved in your judgement in any way. There is also a lingering question regarding your involvement in a libel suit against the author of briovent. Your acquired domain "bradleyreborn.com" mentions me by name and formerly pointed to the domain briovent.blogspot.com (which was ordered removed) and now points to brithscamreport.blogspot.com (which is reposting the content that was ordered to be removed) where your son, Robert, is posting about me.

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    2. From your site: "NOTE: briovent.blogspot.com has been taken down due to a lawsuit filed by Karl Clinger of Embrion Group Inc. A new blog has started in its place to tell the truth about these people and what they are doing to the birth community. To learn more you can go tobirthscamreport.blogspot.com. People are posting there stories about what Brio/Kyle/Karl have done and continue to do."

      I did not contact you to argue points of law or to pursue litigation against you. I have legal possession of assets and I came to you to see if you were interested in them. I get mixed signals from you. If you are interested then we can make an agreement that upon inspection of the validity of my claim you agree to purchase/trade the assets. But, I am not interested in giving you any information that you might try to use against me, as if I had anything to do with your lawsuit. I am sorry that you are disappointed that I have not provided you with my contract. Your attorneys are welcome to sit with my attorneys and review the contract with wet signatures. If I am convinced of your sincere interest in the assets I might even fly out there to meet with your attorneys. There is no controversy as to my rightful possession. I have very recent communications from Kyle Thomas admitting such.

      I wish I could be more trusting of you. I am sure that you are a trustworthy person, but the continued communications from Robert publicly lead me to heed my advance. There was no better word than "hateful" to describe the communication that was being written about me and my wife. You know your son much better than I ever could, but I do know enough to know when I, and my wife, are being disrespected.

      Sincerely,


      Karl Clinger
      (720) 329-0250

      Cc Robert Hathaway

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    3. Actually, they could not, in fact, change the name of the page. Facebook policy does not allow a page name to change once it is over 200 likes. See https://www.facebook.com/help/262981810477512/ - "How do I change my page name" - this is to prevent, for example, a page called "I love Jesus" with 10,000 likes being changed to "I love Satan" - this would lead to 10,000 very unhappy people.

      Unfortunately Karl, you just don't have anything with any value. It's really a bummer, I know. The vast majority of the people following blog this trusted Kyle and believed what he said, but eventually saw the light, cut their losses and ran, trying to warn others as they did. It is time for you to fully and completely see the light. No one is going to give you any money for anything, because 1) 99% of it was stolen to begin with, and 2) it's not worth anything.

      As for the Hathaways, anon 9:02 is spot on. This was all possible and easy for Kyle to scam people because they are not pleasant people or people who are easy to communicate with or have much respect for others and certainly they have never shown themselves to be open-minded. But, they have definitely been the smarter party through all this. According to your own words, you are the major owner of a company with a large settlement claim against it. I'd say that the Hathaways could make a case for not naming you personally in another suit in exchange for your guarantee that absolutely everything will be shut down and/or destroyed. That is most likely about the best you'll get.

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    4. You are not correct on this. I have the option to apply for a name change. I also know that I could get this done, at least this has been confirmed to me by facebook.

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    5. You all keep trying to say that I am an owner of Brio Birth. That is not true. I own the assets. Kyle and Naomi own Brio Birth. My company, Embrion Group, has permission to use the name Brio Birth, hence the DBA filed in Colorado. I am going to be removing that soon, since I am no longer using the name. (Technically, Kyle and Naomi have been Contractors for the last year and a half.) I have not been involved at all.

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    6. Sorry. That was a Texas "You all," not to be inclusive of everybody here.

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    7. I'm sorry, maybe I am really slow, but what is the difference, practically speaking, between owning a company itself and owning all the company's assets?

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  13. Karl, I CANNOT believe you are still debating on whether or not to close down the Brio Facebook page! Really? You're not going to to spite the Hathaways? Really? Man up, do the right thing, and tell the Brio followers the truth. You owe it to them and you owe it to everyone who got scammed by them.

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    1. Here are some questions that I have received over the last few days through the Facebook page:

      "my sister is always making her 2 yr old son shower with her. my problem is i think its nasty he is to old to be showering with her still. i want others opions on if you could maybe ask for me. i also have a 2 yr old son"

      "I am sure your inbox is PACKED but I wanted to write privately.. I have just moved to another state, (Washington) and I am 23weeks pregnant with my 3rd child. I planned my first birth to be completely natural, labored at a birth center without medication, and because of unexpected severe complications, had a forced C-section after an ambulance trip to the ER. my 2nd labor went differently - a vbac attempt with epidural, but still resulted in a C-section. Now, in a new state, my options are much different, and I am not able to have a VBAC attempt. I am being told I will have a scheduled C-section at 39 weeks. I am very uncomfortable with this, but I have very few options. (The only midwife who will deliver me a VBAC atttempt, is 3 hrs away and is not even registered with the state!) I guess I just want some assurance that I will be able to breastfeed successfully, and that it *IS* okay to deliver a baby at 39 weeks. (my first came at 40, my second at 41.) Do you have any information about this? I could really use some support & peace of mind. I haven't even told most of my friends back home, because they are so supportive of natural childbirth & so am I! I love the science of delayed cord clamping, skin-to-skin, attachment parenting - I nursed my 2nd child successfully for over a year! It's just so different this time.."

      "Hi! Could use some advice breast feeding. My baby is 2 weeks old she will only sleep 3 solid hours if I breast feed her from both sides which doesn't leave me much chance to pump so my husband can help with feedings. How can I satisfy her but NOT use formula but still pump? Second question I read that it is impossible to over feed breastfed babies is that true?"

      This is not just about the people in this blog or who were screwed by the Thomases. What is a proposed resource for these people? Several opinions have been expressed here, but nobody has addressed this concern of mine.

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    2. Oh come on Karl...do you really think these people can't ask their questions on another page? Naturally Born, or Mothering, or one of the many thousand doula/CBE business pages? Brio Birth is not the ONLY resource out there by FAR.

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    3. Maybe a list of MAJOR resources -- referrals to sites such as La Leche League, natural parenting sites, ICAN, and such should be what pops up when somebody goes to the BB Facebook page? Karl, we ALL know that we cannot save the whole world; if these people reached out to an anonymous person on Brio's FB page, they're most likely surfing the net and asking the same question in multiple locations. You and Ivy will be answering parenting, birth and breastfeeding questions to 100's of people per month; you simply cannot do all of it. It will take a tremendous amount of time and energy, to the detriment of you, your family, your marriage.... And seriously, WHY should you be responsible for those questions? You might be able to help, but you're certainly not experts in any sense of the word. If you're concerned about those people, give them the best resources to get their help from. Just my thoughts here.

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    4. Karl, you simply aren't that important. Brio Birth's facebook page isn't that important. It is not the only community. See the bigger picture and be a bit more humble.

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  14. Karl,

    You could before you shut the Facebook page down, point these people to other sites, there are several, Birth Without Fear, Informed Beginnings, Natural Parenting, etc. Keeping the page up is really still cheating people, as they think Brio Birth is a legit organization, it isn't.

    I do hope you do the right thing.

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    1. It is interesting, Dorene, what you are saying. The only thing Ivy's page does is points to the blogs that you mentioned and more. But, that might be considered another scheme. Ivy has already told me that she does not want stupid people saying that she got even one thing from Brio Brith. I respect that. Does anybody else have something like that?

      Thanks,


      Karl

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    2. Okay, here is your and Ivy's chance. Why not say exactly what her page will be about? Is it like Natural Parenting for advice? Birth Without Fear? Informed Beginnings which is a childbirth education organization and also about information?

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    3. I hope Ivy adds her own input here, because she has done everything, but what I have seen, so far, is a Who's who, links to video to watch, links to blogs, links to birth education sites, etc.

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    4. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. Hoping that she doesn't use stuff for the Yahoo group, except for things that were public.

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    5. The only issue people had with Ivy's concept was the connection to Brio. Pointing the website to it and such. Please don't twist words.

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    6. I just talked to Ivy. She has invited anybody who wants to know about Ovo Birth to email her at ivyrclinger@gmail.com. She was put off by her experience with what she shared in confidence with people she thought were friends, but one in particular betrayed her. She is not on trial and does not feel the need to defend anything she is doing, but she is willing to answer any questions about what she is doing to anybody who cares enough to ask. She attended a birth yesterday and is taking some time off from building her site. On principal, she has decided not to come back to this site. I can verify that she is not using anything that is not voluntarily provided and everything will fall under the Creative Commons license. For now, it just points at well known blogs and sites with information that people who are new to the natural birth community should know.

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    7. As far as I know, I do not have access, nor have I ever had access, to the Yahoo Group.

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    8. Karl, I'm not sure that a Yahoo group even exists anymore. As was explained, when Naomi had the original one shut down she opened up a new one that she'd put all the files in. Very few people took her up on the offer to join that group. The original group was re-activated, and the members were advised to remove their files and then delete themselves from the group. The original group was then shut down by Doreene.

      But obviously Naomi saved all of the files that were in the original group somewhere in Brio's files. There were hundreds of files--I probably put about 30 files in there myself. So any game ideas for teaching, course outlines, candy wrappers...its all stuff that was created by other people.

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  15. Actually, people have addressed that concern. A few people have pointed out that there are numerous other FB pages that offer those same types of resources. The Brio Birth FB page does not provide any unique services that are not already available without the deceptive history.

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    1. Angela,

      I have already heard the opinion of the AAHCC representatives. I am taking it into consideration.

      Thank you,


      Karl

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    2. Let me be clear. My last name may be Hathaway, but I am not, and never have been, a representative of AAHCC. I do not speak for them. I speak for myself, and only myself. Any thoughts or opinions I express here or elsewhere are mine and only mine.

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    3. Angela,

      It is so interesting how all of my interests are my wife's, and vice versa, but you only speak for yourself. After seeing how disrespectful you were to my wife I really don't care about your opinion or who it represents.

      Sincerely,


      Karl

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    4. Karl, you missed the point. You accused her of being an AAHCC representative and you were wrong. She factually informed you of that and then you twisted it to be about her relationship with her husband. This is not showing your best colors. And for the record, having "all interests" in common sounds a bit codependent. And if you really did tell Robert to control his wife, well, frankly, I don't think you're the best qualified to be offering marriage advice. Both, drop the ego, stop the circles, and let's get to the bottom of this.

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    5. Can you please tell me what exactly I said that was so disrespectful? I'm honestly curious. I do not feel that I was disrespectful at all. Was I direct? Yes, I was. I see nothing wrong with being direct, especially if I think someone is about to do something that could be harmful to others. I pointed out certain things that made me uncomfortable with her idea, including use of the leaf in her logo, source coding that includes briobirth.com, Bradley Method, and Husband-Coached childbirth, etc. She responded by saying "We may direct traffic from the Brio website at some point and the leaves at the top of the page would tie the Brio theme to my page"

      Mind you, she posted her website on a private FB group whose stated intention was to stomp out whatever was left of Kyle/Noami/Brio Birth. So, I think it's pretty reasonable to expect that this didn't sit well with me, or anyone else. So yes, I asked some very direct questions, and I pointed out my concerns about her intentions and the ethics behind it all. But remember...she asked the group for our HONEST OPINIONS. That is what I gave her.

      So please tell me how that is disrespectful. Just because you don't like what someone has to say, doesn't mean that person is disrespectful.

      The bottom line is....the right thing to do is the right thing to do...regardless of who said it. I just happened to be the first person to say it.

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    6. When I married my husband I became a co-owner of his candle business because the state we live in is a "community property" state. I gave input to my husband about the business.

      However...my marriage to him did not give me any stake in his parents' candle business. That was separate--my husband actually deliberately had a separate business from his parents-- his parents made candles, my husband was their biggest client in purchasing the candles which he re-sold.

      Likewise, even though we are expecting that you and Ivy will be working together on business ventures, none of us have any difficulty in understanding that Angela is not a representative of the AAHCC.

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    7. Exactly. And might I add, my husband is not an AAHCC representative either. He does some small contract work for his parents (he has a regular full-time job), but he is not an AAHCC representative either. The only people who can speak for AAHCC are Jay & Marjie.

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    8. Angela,

      Direct questions are welcomed, but you chose the path of disrespect. You have been calling me Kyle and associated Ivy with Naomi in your emails and facebook posts. “Oh...and the woe is me, everyone is attacking me, I'm just trying to help the world stuff....it reeks of Naomi.” “I know you're going to say that you have no control over it...it's all Karl's thing. I'm calling BS. If my husband was involved with a company like Brio I would be so far up his behind he wouldn't know his own name! No way on earth would I tolerate that! And if he refused the shut it down, he'd find himself looking for a divorce attorney.” This type of language was perceived as disrespectful. If that was not your intention then you must just be a mean person. Perhaps if you were on a familiar basis with somebody this would be understood as ‘tough love,’ but Ivy did not receive it that way.

      I am not sure where anybody is getting the idea that I told Robert to control you in any way. Let’s put that to bed right now. Here is the excerpt from the email I sent him: “I do not hesitate to communicate freely with you, except that your wife has been less than cordial to my wife. She does not know me and presumes to make statements about me to others. I am not like Kyle Thomas in any way. I would not suggest that you have any sort of control over her actions, but could you please ask her to direct any questions about me or my decisions to me directly? I would be glad to answer her promptly. She is having trouble believing that I would do something for free. It would not be the first time and it certainly will not be the last. I do not share this to boast, I just wanted to establish the precedent and give you one example here. http://www.gabrielproject.us/ “

      Sincerely,


      Karl

      P.S. You had a complete explanation, but for the benefit of everybody here who has not seen the entire correspondence, I will explain, again. Ivy has never made a web site before. She used wix.com, which uses no code. There was a template that Ivy liked and chose as a starting point. The template happened to have a leaf near the title. Ivy did not notice it until after she had created the site and said. "Oh, that leaf looks like the Brio leaf. I kind of like it. I think I'll leave it." Ivy did not add any tags or alter the source code in any way. You know that though, but that doesn't stop you from laying the accusation. You and Robert have both been deceptive about us and this is yet another point of disrespect.

      Delete
    9. 1) I don't recall ever calling you Kyle. If I did, it may have been a typo, as your names are similar, and I type about 90wpm.

      2) After being called out, Ivy was behaving much the way Naomi did whenever someone confronted her with things she didn't like. The correlation was accurate.

      3) Yes, I did say "If my husband was involved with a company like Brio I would be so far up his behind he wouldn't know his own name! No way on earth would I tolerate that! And if he refused the shut it down, he'd find himself looking for a divorce attorney.” Because it's true. If I told my husband I had a strong moral objection to something he was doing, and he refused to stop, I would consider that disrespectful of my feelings. And if it was related to his support of a fraudulent company....no, I don't think I could remain married to him. That does not make me a mean person. That makes me a person with integrity who will stand up for what is right.

      4) re: The Gabriel Project - Robert checked that out, and pointed out to you that your name wasn't anywhere on it. So you went and changed the "Who Is" listing to show you have control over. Um, I'm not as much of a computer nerd as my husband, but doesn't lying on a "Who Is" registration grounds to have the domain name revoked? So were you lying before or after you changed the name?

      5) My concerns about the leaf and the source code were raised before she said anything about a template (it was actually the very first thing I commented about), so my concerns were absolutely valid.

      I'm really tempted to send a screen cap of the whole exchange to Birth Scam so everyone can read the whole thing and judge for themselves if I was disrespectful or not.

      Delete
    10. Angela,

      1) You did call me Kyle.

      2) Ivy walked away. Naomi never did that.

      3) Somebody said something about me being controlling. That is so far from reality. Just ask Ivy. Perhaps they were reading your comments and thought that I was saying those things. Who knows?

      4) I try to give credit to the charities and non-profits I have built websites for. I changed it because you did not believe that I had done it. What kind of person would try to use that against somebody who volunteers in this way? Honestly. I am sure you could find something wrong with www.gabrielproject.us. I am involved in it, so it must be a scam. Quick, report it so that you can put an end to assistance provided for crisis pregnancies from the Catholic Church!

      5) You assumed what you wanted to and attacked Ivy about it. It is not the first time and it probably won't be the last. Had you taken a few moments to become more informed you probably would have made a better decision. That is all I am asking for here, but you seem to have something about methodical wisdom.

      Do what you think you need to. That is probably just what this group needs.

      Delete
    11. Wait, are you saying you developed gabrielproject.us? As a volunteer, or as a paid employee?

      Delete
    12. This was a volunteer project. I had even paid a previous developer to do some work on the homepage, but I provided this page for free to the Gabriel Project.

      Delete
  16. Can someone explain to me why Ivy was part of a "group whose stated intention was to stomp out whatever was left of Kyle/Noami/Brio Birth?" Seeing as her husband owns Brio Birth...it seems odd.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ivy said that it was this was not the goal initially. She was there before Angela, though. Perhaps this changed when Angela came along.

      Delete
  17. Karl, please be careful about letting your emotions make decisions. Anger and frustration towards the Hathaways, as well as greed, are what lead to the creation of Brio in the first place. Please don't let these emotions continue to wreak havoc. While it may be hard, letting go of "bad debt" may be the best course of action. Walking away can actually be quite freeing for the soul.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I'm still confused. Why exactly are you NOT closing the Facebook page? Are you making money from it? Are you going to hang on the coattails of a fraudulent company for your own gain? What is the point? So many have been scammed. So many have been abused. It's time to burn the Brio name. Start something new, with no bad blood behind it. Do the right thing. Tell the Brio followers what happened and let them know there are other/better options for getting information and support on Facebook. DO THE RIGHT THING!!!

    ReplyDelete
  19. We have never sold workbooks. The Thomases funneled any money that came in to the PayPay account directly into other things. I never saw a penny of it. The only thing I have to show for it is a negative balance which will never be made positive by anyone but me. We never made any money from anything you all or the Thomases ever did. That is an irrefutable fact.

    Let’s take a look at what everybody has asked for. You all wanted to get the Thomases out of the picture. I did that. You all wanted credit given to the authors. I offered to do that and that was not good enough, so I agreed not to use the workbook at all. You said that nothing would be right until the website was completely taken down. I took down the website, but that still wasn’t good enough. Now the Facebook page is such an evil presence that vengeful gratification is more important than the good that might come from the tens of thousands of visitors to the page and moms who eagerly await some new information on their timeline. I am cautioned about letting my emotions participate in my decision of what to do with the facebook page. What is the main motivation for removing it? Anger, pain, frustration, etc is why.
    Angela said, “Until Karl shuts Brio down completely....anything you or he do will be tainted by the reputation of Brio. Because you guys are solely responsible for it's continued existence. Then, when you add in other references to Brio (source code, the leaf in your logo, directing Brio web traffic)...it just makes the whole thing smell even more fishy.” I am not entirely convinced. If I shutdown all of the social media then what is next? I don’t think you will ever be happy with what I do. I have been showing a good faith effort to work with people here, but this is no longer productive. Whatever I do will not be a result of anything that happens here. I welcome the sincere to take this discussion elsewhere. I am happy to talk to anybody who has any good ideas.

    Sincerely,


    Karl Clinger

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I would suggest that nobody has changed anything. Even as far back as the beginnings of Brio Vent, it has been made clear my many women on the two blogs that all things Brio must go...the books, the website, the FB pages...ALL OF IT. Several here have commended you for what you have done so far. I also commend you for that. But the idea that the FB page must also go is not a new suggestion.

      I understand that you didn't create this mess (Kyle/Naomi did), but you are left holding the bag, so to speak. That sucks for you. I honestly think that if you held true to not using/selling the workbook, kept the Brio website down permanently, and removed the FB page completely....nobody here would have any objections to you and/or Ivy going and doing your own thing (from scratch, of course...no using illegally-obtained contact lists, stolen IP, etc.). Yes, you are out your investment money...and that also sucks. But that's a risk you take when you make investments. Some of them will be a win...and some of them will be a total loss. Chalk this one up to a total loss and walk away and be done with it. Then the birth community can finally start healing from the destruction that was created with Bradley Reborn/Brio Birth. And THAT is good for the pregnant women that we all serve.

      Delete
    2. Karl,

      I really don't want to respond anymore because I hate that my name is now again going to link with this fiasco. However, you need to understand the true issue at hand. That entire facebook page was built on lies. We all started praise and giving brio and good reputation. Then it just took off. Once a majority of the educators left it continue based on the lies we told. I've tried very hard to clear that lie, and it is still present starring me in the face every day. Changing the name won't make a difference because again, it was built on lies. I am no longer angry. You are still fresh into the hurt and pain caused at the hands of the Thomases.

      I want you to consider another number on that page. The number of people talking about Brio Birth. The lowest I've seen it recently was around 500 or so. Today it is resting at 1,916. Now look at Naturally Born. I point to that one because it has blossomed over the years until a wonderful connection place with open discussion w/o drama and/or controversy. Also, it is not a big name brand organization. Furthermore, it is one that has been named here and frankly I don't any of the people posting on here have any stake into the company like AAHCC, Lamaze, or Informed Beginnings, or CAPPA. My point? They have 19K likes and 6,052 people TALKING ABOUT THEM meaning engaging in conversation. I never saw that kind of number at all when looking at Brio. It is not the site you think it is at all. I actually find the discussion and level of maturity on NB at a different caliber than on Brio Birth. And I highly feel that is because of the junk material that was stolen off of sites like tumblr, pinterest, and google images to boost likes onto the page.

      I'll be honest here. I never want the Thomases to go away. I want the company Brio Birth to go away. It is always going to be a thorn in the birth communities side. And I honestly do not think it will be a site for advice. There will be a time someone is going to get greedy.

      I am not representing any childbrith organization here. I'm representing myself. The lie must end Karl. And if I offended you previously I apologize. I just do not get the hold onto this facebook page. What do you have to gain? The facebook page was used to lure more people into the scam. I want you to look at this Spiritual Warfare http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/spiritual_warfare.php Here's the part I want you to consider, "Since strongholds are built upon lies that we have been fed, the way we tear down strongholds is by feeding on the truth (in God's Word), which is the opposite of what the enemy has been feeding us. If the enemy has been feeding us a lie, we need to stop eating the lie and start feeding ourselves the truth." Then they reference Ephesians. This is exactly what is going on here. The entire thing of Brio Birth is the stronghold that is keeping you in this lie. I'm showing you another option...Naturally Born. Others have mentioned Mothering as well (has some very active msg boards) and Baby Center (again VERY active boards there). Trust us, to-be moms and dads and newly breastfeeding moms and struggle parents dealing with issues will not be without help. Making these wonderful families believe that in a sense Brio Birth is still around keeps them in the lie that it is a viable company that will one day offer childbirth certification and classes.

      Oh, yes, what is happening to those educators out there? Do they know this is happening? Do they have an organization to point to? Do they have workbooks and materials? What about those new teachers that trained late this year? What's happening there? See Karl this is why I fail to believe you that you are sincere in getting this completely gone b/c there are still many open ended questions.

      Delete
    3. Stacy,

      I have no objection linking to as many resources as you all can come up with. What I do not understand is this: If I remove all of the content and change the name then what is the harm in keeping the facebook page? The fans would see the name change as a confirmation that Brio Birth has ended. Shutting down the page leaves no channel of communication with those who wandered to the page knowing nothing of Brio Birth's beginning. If all of the social media just disappears then nobody is the wiser. If you are concerned about the Thomases doing something else in the future then why would you want to put everybody who had the bad experiences at a disadvantage and take away the possibility of sounding the alarm?

      I don't think anybody disagrees with you that Brio Birth was built on a lie. I was placed for adoption because a young woman made a decision contrary to what she was taught. I would never suggest the same decision for my own daughter, but I would like to think that everything that happens, no matter what its beginnings, can end up good.

      Delete
    4. Karl,

      Your argument is that you have to keep it around so that women and infants and dads get the services they need. I know you have asked for help from people in the birth community to help field those questions, but look at this (and I did post some links below) there are resources in place already for moms and dads to get help. I think you are still missing the connection here. It is a lie from the beginning and those were people duped into believing this was a good place. So, think of this, you change the name and then what are these fans going to think? They will be confused and start to discuss less and less on this page and elsewhere. People have made comments on that page how awesome and amazing Brio Birth is. Are you going to take the time to scrub all that out? Do you understand the point I'm make about the spiritual warfare? This page a deep strong hold on you, Karl. You need to see it was started with a malicious intent and that evil will always be linked to it no matter what the name will be. God works in mysterious ways. You can never hide the truth from Him.

      Delete
  20. Karl,
    I also looked at the source code of Ovo Birth and it did have reference to Brio, Bradley, and Husband Coached on every page. If you still have the site on a test server somewhere, you can email me the link and I will show you where it is. When creating something, it is always good to have fresh eyes looking at it for feedback. You don't have to take feedback, but I take it that people care if they take the time to offer me critique. This type of embedded tag would of course be problematic with the history of Brio Birth. It wasn't a demand, it was a suggestion.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Kelly,

      Please ask Ivy about that. What I can tell you is that the reason that is in the source code is because Ivy was being completely objective and was linking to bradlybirth.com as a childbirth education company. Does anybody have an objection to that? After her dealings over the last few days I am sure she would be more than happy to remove the link.

      Sincerely,


      Karl

      Delete
    2. Two shall become one...maybe?January 9, 2013 at 10:25 AM

      Okay, I'm not a website designer so I really don't know how "source code" works...but it would seem like to me that if it was simply a matter of links being on a single resource page (which is DEFINITELY a reasonable enough thing for her to do in my mind), the names would not appear in the source code on EVERY page of the site.

      But you, Karl, are a website designer of some sort...so I'd think you would know more about that than I do? And why in the world can't YOU ask your wife?

      Delete
  21. I think that there are LOTS of good and better places for pregnant women to get the information they need. As a service, direct the "likes" folks to those sources and then take it all apart and destroy it. We all learned a hard lesson via Kyle, but its hard having the name shoved in your face every day when you know you were scammed and dozens are owed thousands of dollars from it that they will never see. Given my own really horrible financial situation today I WISH there was a way to recoup my losses. I would settle for everyone disbanding and disowning the name Brio and move on to new, fresh, and honorable endeavors.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Karl, you are leaving many of us no choice but to report the Facebook Page as a scam...which is what it is. Built on lies. What you are doing by keeping it active is unethical. It is wrong. It is hurtful. As mentioned a million times already, there are TONS of other wonderful Facebook pages that pregnant families can go to for honest, fact-based information and support. Tell the fans what happened and the other pages they can go to for good info and support. While I respect what you have done so far, I cannot stand by you until you finish what needs to be done. Remove Brio Birth and any reference to it from anything and everything you have control of.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. As anonymous, I cannot take you seriously. I am looking for something bad about the facebook page and I am not finding it. I removed a bunch of stuff and I continue to remove what is brought to my attention. It would be a full time job for me to try to keep all of you anonymous people happy. I really do not think it is possible. This request sounds like it is coming out of spite toward the Thomases. I think it would be a dis-service to remove the page without sharing the many options for good birth information with the people who have liked the page. It just smells like hate. I don't like that. Come up with a better idea than to abandon the audience and do it as yourself and I would be happy to consider it. The facebook page is legitimate. Reporting it as spam would be a lie. I would like to consult some people who have expressed a desire to discuss this before I shut it down. It is not doing any harm to take a few days and make an informed decision. I made the comparison to Robert of the Catholic priests who destroyed all of the written records they could find when they arrived in America. They did it for the same reasons I am asked to take down the facebookpage. (i.e. Protect the community. It is evil. etc.) Show me what is wrong with the page and I will fix it. I will tell you right now that if the facebook page is removed because it is reported as a scam I will put the briobirth.com website back up and just give everything back to the Thomases, then you can just deal with them. From this point on Anonymous posts are totally meaningless and will not be acknowledged.

      Sincerely,


      Karl

      Delete
    2. Karl,

      Again, you need to remove the "little collection of awesomeness" album. The Mayan Calendar comic belongs to a true artist. Be careful! These were not gotten images w/ permission!!! Remove the videos. there I told you what is wrong with the facebook page. All those images and videos got brio the likes and attention. It is a lie based on those things and I've said it several times over and over and over. You are extremely lucky you have not been sued yet due to these images. You know my name and should take me seriously.

      In the words of the Lorax, "You have been warned!"

      Delete
    3. And Karl, that there that Stacy said is a big part of why the "likes" Brio Birth has gotten are really not valuable. The "Likes" are from people who aren't even remotely interestedin childbirth...but liked all the cutesy pictures that Naomi shared regularly.

      Delete
  23. If anybody wants to do something to help I would like to post as many links as possible on the facebook page. If you would like a link included please send a private message to briobirth on facebook.

    Thanks,


    Karl

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Explain why Karl!? I don't get it. Again, as I have pointed out and so have others there are other places that have controversial issues and were gained likes w/o stealing IP. You are continuing to perpetuate a lie here.

      And I'm being totally honest about the "a little collection of awesomeness" album I've pointed out. You are opening yourself to a whole other can of worms of litigation. You need to get rid of it now. The entire album and the entire video album.

      Delete
    2. Stacy,

      It was next on my to do list. I am completely willing to rid the facebook page of anything that does not belong to Brio, but you MUST give me some time. I know that you do not know me, but telling me what to do is not going to get it done. You can be as tough as you want, but also be reasonable.

      Sincerely,


      Karl

      Delete
    3. ooopppss sorry my page hadn't loaded! this comment!!!

      Delete
    4. BTW, it is not hard to do. You are on the computer right now. I think it is just my nature to want things done quickly and apologize for that, but really it takes less than 5 minutes to delete an entire album. If you have the files they created, you can easily create the few things that are theirs and put the back. and trust me, I've googled imaged searched many many of these images. They do not originally belong to Brio nor do the videos except the Brio Birth video.

      Delete
    5. The album of photos is gone. Any photo used from this point forward will properly credit the original author. Deleting videos is not as simple.

      Karl

      Delete
    6. Thank you Karl. It is possible. Takes a few seconds and there are not that many videos. you do have to open the video and then go to options and delete. Sorry, I forgot with videos they do some weird things, but one video on there I think is from Ricki Lake's MBOBB if I'm correct. Also the baby cochlear oh that really is sad b/c they made likes off of that.

      Delete
    7. Karl, keep in mind it is not just crediting the author or subjects. You need written expressed consent from the artist and/or photographer that you can use the image.

      Delete
    8. Stacy,

      I have just been posting what is posted on public sites, linking to the original material. I have not posted any pictures, but if I do I will make sure that diligence is done to obtain permission when needed. Here is the result of the last 6 days that I have been posting:

      Total Likes?
      26,058 5.22%

      Friends of Fans?
      7,564,569 2.38%

      People Talking About This?
      255,488 25,096.06%

      Weekly Total Reach?
      2,393,087 1,062.1%
      (These are all increases.)

      Delete
    9. Stacy,

      How do you feel about videos reposted from break.com and and youtube?

      Thanks,


      Karl

      Delete
    10. If they link back and are SHARES only. But they are not. Can you give me a link to the ones you thinking here? And I'm looking at those numbers and right now have a head cold and my brain is going, huh??? Honestly just even trying to type words correctly is strange right now. Give me a sec to process those numbers.

      And I know I've never spoken face to face or voice to voice to you. I will try my best not to be nasty. You are really proving me wrong on my earlier assumptions.

      Delete
    11. Friends of Fans number??? That's the one I'm trying to understand. Still just consider again this is not the only place moms can get help.

      Delete
    12. See head cold making brain hurt...Jenn above says exactly what I'm trying to say :) So with these numbers Karl, look at them in a week. See how it changes. I'll wager (and if I am wrong I apologize) those Friends of Fans number is gonna change. That cochlear implant video is viral (meaning shared from friends of friends) That's what is happening here with that. So, getting the junk that Naomi upload illegally and seeing what is really going on in a week.

      Delete
    13. Stacy,

      Friend if Fans is what is used to measure "Reach" on Facebook. The percentages are the increases over the previous week. For as far back as I can see nobody has been talking about the page, but that has increased by more than 25,000 %.

      Delete
    14. Sorry. I meant Friends of Fans.

      Delete
    15. But doesn't that number also account for the posts that friends see and like and then share and pass on to their friends? And many of those are the videos and images. That's just what I'm trying to point out. And thank you kindly for doing the moral thing here. I still want the page gone, but at least the reaching is going to diminish a bit since the the viral things are getting less and less. And that is a good thing because you are purging those lies (copyright images/videos).

      Delete
  24. I have a shiny penny...

    ReplyDelete
  25. Honestly, bottom line me... How much do you think these assets are worth?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Well, by the time you all get what you want they won't be worth anything. There are two serious prospects for the social media, alone. The domains briobirth.everything and brio.pro still represent a significant amount of traffic. As with anything, the value is what somebody is willing to pay for it.

      Delete
    2. What I'm asking is, What do *you* want for it? Give us a solid, sturdy number.
      The thing is, Karl, that the Thomas' have ruined anything you think you have. I, personally, think you are bailing this sinking ship with a bucket full of holes. Do yourself a favor, and don't go down with this ship.

      Delete
    3. Read the post from December about IP TheftJanuary 9, 2013 at 10:36 AM

      As Katie says...its not worth much of anything NOW. We are simply advising you on things that you need to delete because they are copyright violations. Having them posted could get you sued. Taking them down does not guarantee that you will not get sued for having used them in the past without permission.

      Posting LINKS to something someone else has posted is perfectly legal. But copying the material and putting it into your album is IP theft if you don't have explicit permission to use the item from the owner. It's a pretty simple distinction. Of course if you post a link to something...and one of your fans shares it...it doesn't always retain the link back to Brio, especially after the second or third generation of being shared. And thus it isn't as effective in boosting your fan stats as putting something in your photo album is.

      Delete
    4. "Well, by the time you all get what you want they won't be worth anything." - You say that like it's a bad thing. What I see people wanting is for you to remove stolen material. You do realize it's unethical and illegal to gain from stolen material? It's not like the people here are being nit-picky. These are serious issues with how Kylomi have been doing business for some time. I think your disappointment should be with not having seen that before, not being disappointed that we meanies are calling you out on it.

      Delete
  26. https://www.facebook.com/pages/wwwVBACFACTScom/44134673920

    https://www.facebook.com/NaturallyBorn?fref=ts

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Birthing-Bonding-Breastfeeding/131031930287150

    https://www.facebook.com/MotherloveHerbal

    https://www.facebook.com/BreastfeedingUSA

    Just some other places moms can get help.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I will add more to the list as I get them. Check it out. http://www.facebook.com/notes/brio-birth/other-recommended-birth-resources/579456502069871

      Delete
    2. More
      https://www.facebook.com/aboutpregnancy
      https://www.facebook.com/CAPPAnetworking
      https://www.facebook.com/TheGreatestPregnancyEver
      https://www.facebook.com/InJoyEducation
      https://www.facebook.com/ChoicesinChildbirth?fref=pb
      https://www.facebook.com/ChildbirthConnection
      https://www.facebook.com/ICANonline

      Delete
  27. This video Karl. Look at the numbers. That is how you are seeing those data on facebook be inflated so high. It's not just this video, but it was the pictures and others. this is just the one that really bothers me the most because here is this mother that truly shared with the world her son who is 5 now. Naomi/Kyle lied about knowing where the child is. They made themselves look amazing because they make people they have this video. The credit should be going back to youtube so the MOTHER AND FATHER could witness the joy people are seeing in their son's reaction. Getting gain from a child (and a child with a medical) condition makes me ill. My son has medical issues at this time and I would never consider sharing his videos or pictures on my website for sympathy gain EVER. I may have mentioned him but never bring in that . I don't think that is right. I will share it on my personal page with friends and family that desire to see him better. I don't know how this particular mom feels but boy I'll tell ya if I knew that my video of my son was being used this way, there'd be hell to pay.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. sorry https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=227366017336828&set=vb.183429675005891&type=3&theater

      Delete
    2. So, do I delete the video or post the link with the video?

      Delete
    3. DELETE IT. Naomi had figured out how to download it somehow and then uploaded to FB making it look like they own it. If you go on FB and look around at other videos being shared from youtube and such, the video will have the youtube icon in the viewer and you can choose to go directly to youtube to watch it. With these videos you have no choice but to watch it through FB's viewer. does that make sense? Karl you do not own any rights to this video or any other video other than the Brio Birth Video. The Cindy Crawford one while not shared a ton I'd make sure is gone. you again are lucky no one has figured that one out. As I said I think (could be wrong but I've seen it on a DVD) is from MBOBB.

      Delete
    4. Here is a video I decided not to post. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eNVde5HPhYo

      Delete
    5. I deleted that video. Do you think I should post the link to the original youtube video so that people who come looking for it can get to it easier? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTzTt1VnHRM

      Delete
    6. Swagger wagon is much better IMHO ;)
      http://youtu.be/pUG3Z8Hxa5I

      Delete
    7. sorry no this one will get ya going so much more!!! I forgot this one and for a good chuckle you gotta look up mom my ride oh my
      http://youtu.be/N_NspDWssIY

      Delete
    8. I hadn't seen the Swagger Wagon, but Ivy showed me The Parent Rap before. It is great!

      Delete
  28. I'd would wait for a few days honestly. here's why. The likes and exposure of that video were gained under false pretenses.

    Here's hubby point...your are too vested in this and I'm not going to get through to you. He's standing here working on a new tivo set up and I'm on the laptop sharing my thoughts. Sometimes, my engineering geeky hubby really gets it and here he understands. To be perfectly honest as well. He doesn't normally engage this stuff b/c he just hates confrontation, but he would not continue to promote that video.

    If you really want to make a great point, find that parent and ask her if you could post it and then ask if she'd be willing share her thoughts and experience.

    My point...you are still exploiting this child's condition for gain.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I found a follow-up piece for tge video I r ed moved. http://todayhealth.today.com/_news/2013/01/06/16194591-viral-video-baby-boy-in-cochlear-implant-video-is-5-now-doing-great?lite It gives all of the information that you felt was missing. I would like to post it. What is your opinion?

      Delete
    2. Wow. That last post did not come out like I had planned. What I meant to say is that I found a follow-up piece for the video I removed.

      Delete
    3. Karl,

      My opinion has not changed. While this mother has shown things out there in internet land, you are still using this child for that page's own gain. See if that page can stand on its own two feet without these viral type videos and images. If your point is to help mothers and babies and give informed decisions, why does the page need this video? Yes, I said you should get her to update for you, but I also said "you are still exploiting this child's condition for gain."

      I appreciate the fact you are understanding that those images needed to come down. I had more to say; it's just coming out all wrong. And please know I'm not the only one suggesting this about that video and the others. The Cindy Crawford one is from Ricki Lake and My Best Birth, so again, unless you have written expressed consent to use, I'd ditch it.

      Delete
    4. Read the post from December about IP TheftJanuary 9, 2013 at 10:04 AM

      Kyle,

      If you'd like to post a link to the follow up video, that is wonderful. But, if you copy the video and put it in Brio's albums...that is copyright infringement, and puts Brio at risk of being sued. Just because "everyone is doing it" does not make it right. I assume you have read previous posts on Birth Scam, so you are familiar with this concept, but if not, here is the link: http://www.birthscamreport.blogspot.com/2012/12/brio-birth-growing-their-facebook-fan.html

      Delete
    5. Let's Be ReasonableJanuary 9, 2013 at 10:19 AM

      I think everyone here agrees that getting good reference information out to pregnant women is a good thing and a lot of people are already doing that, but we also think that using the Brio name to do that is wrong.

      So if you must keep this page up there, just make sure that you have permission for the information you post, remove the stuff you do not have permission for and change the name of the page like you said you could. Then I don't think we would have anymore issues with it.

      Delete
    6. Ummmm.... Kyle isn't here, but Karl is. That's me. I deleted the video in question.

      Stacy,

      I already know what would happen without posting anything of substance. The month before I started posted every statistic was in decline. This family has an article for national viewing with msnbc on the today show. I am not sure how linking to this story is an exploitation of any kind. Can you please explain? If this is where many heard about the story then why not link to this story as a follow-up. That seems to be what the family intended.

      Delete
    7. @ Let's Be Reasonable: What else needs to be removed? I have been deleting everything that has been brought to my attention.

      Delete
    8. Let's Be ReasonableJanuary 9, 2013 at 10:45 AM

      I was not sure if you had completed removing everything you were informed of. I do see that you have been removing stuff.

      Now how about changing the name to something that does not make people think of the damage done by brio.

      Delete
    9. Any suggestions? I am open to them.

      Delete
    10. It's been suggested over and over and over and over again. Take down the page. Then you say that it provides a valuable service. Then people tell you others do that. Then you ignore it.

      Delete
    11. Let's Be ReasonableJanuary 9, 2013 at 12:20 PM

      As long as it doesn't contain the words Brio, Embrion, Ovo or Bradley I think people would be ok with whatever.

      I really think the page should just be taken down as there are plenty of resources out there, but the name change would at least take some of scandal away.

      Delete
    12. Karl,

      I do appreciate what you have done to make it a clean FB page. I will apologize (because another person put the same perspective out their for me) and say I'm just overly sensitive to this issue about the child here. I feel I can at least say that and hope that you understand my feeling.

      As to the name thing, I do still stand by the feeling it is still built on lies, but if you want to continue to help mothers as best you can, then yes, change the name. Do not make it Ovo Birth, Bradley anything, Brio related in any fashion.

      Birth Talk: Helping Mothers connect to Mothers I know cheesy but the only thing that comes to my head right now.

      Delete
    13. Karl, what exactly is the point of the Facebook page anyway? For a normal business it would be to drive up sales. But you don't have any sales. If the point truly is the community, then have some faith that people are smart enough to look elsewhere. Which leaves the sale of the page itself. And it's been pointed out that it's built on lies with low quality likes. Please, explain why you are working so hard to keep the page going.

      Delete
    14. Read the post from December about IP TheftJanuary 9, 2013 at 12:54 PM

      Karl, Sorry for calling you Kyle...your names are just too similar!

      While I disagree with Stacy's point...I do understand it. She thinks you should not even link to the follow up story because you are exploiting the boy for possible financial gain, and she thinks she should tell you not to. I do agree that posting the link would be exploitative (because really, what does his story have to do with BIRTH issues?). But I disagree that it is her place to tell you that you shouldn't do something that is legal.

      Delete
    15. December,

      You are correct that I do feel it exploits him. He removed the original uploaded video and I still feel just even keeping the update continues to exploit him for the facebook gain, but you are also correct I do not have the right or power to tell him not to post that. That is why I finally realized I had some real issues with it because of my experience with my child and his medical issues. I hope that Karl does realize and understand I do apologize. I wasn't aware I was doing that.

      Anyway, Karl just happy most of the lie is going away. I looked at a comment below about a few things and agree too that the banner and tag line fastest growing needs to go. I'm finished with this conversation. I think you have a lot to think about in terms of what the mission and purpose are of the facebook page and your true intent in keeping it around.

      Delete
    16. Stacy,

      Thank you for your input. It has been very helpful. Whatever I do with the page it is safe to assume that it will not bare the name Brio.

      Sincerely,


      Karl

      Delete
  29. What about the Brio Birth on Pinterest?

    ReplyDelete
  30. Other Facebook pages that have good content and support
    https://www.facebook.com/NaturallyBorn
    https://www.facebook.com/aboutpregnancy
    https://www.facebook.com/CAPPAnetworking
    https://www.facebook.com/TheGreatestPregnancyEver
    https://www.facebook.com/InJoyEducation
    https://www.facebook.com/ChoicesinChildbirth?fref=pb
    https://www.facebook.com/ChildbirthConnection
    https://www.facebook.com/ICANonline

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you, Kerri. I added these links.


      Karl

      Delete
  31. You know what I would like to see, Karl? I would like to see you take responsibility for your role in the deception of so many over the past year. You were warned repeatedly about Kyle, Naomi and Brio, but helped them anyway. How many educators paid for Brio's training since this scam came to light a year and a half ago and are now going to end up with nothing? Though you say you didn't take a dime, you watched Kyle and Naomi essentially steal from people and it took you so much longer to come to the conclusion that many of us reached after a few months. Where is your personal accountability in all of this?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Since we've heard from people who know people who took the training, and since the page to sign up for the trainings went to an Embrion paypal account how could he not have gotten money from them signing up?

      Delete
    2. And what about people who have already paid for upcoming trainings that will now not happen? I know of at least one woman who requested a refund that Karl told to contact Naomi. Karl, I'm sorry, but the way you describe things it sounds like Kyle & Namoi were essentially your employees, and you owned Brio Birth...thus YOU are on the hook for the refunds.

      Delete
  32. You are giving away your time...January 9, 2013 at 1:00 PM

    People...why are you giving Karl links? Why not let him do his own work for his business? Remember...he is still trying to sell this thing!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Similar to how Kyle got us to work for free.

      Delete
    2. Until he tells you what he is going to do with them I wouldn't give him anything.

      Delete
    3. And then people will complain he's not putting up enough links, ones that aren't good enough, ones that are too commercial.... C'mon, people, be reasonable; it's not that hard to share a few good links. And yes I was also one of the scammed teachers, I'm not a friend of Karl's. He's trying, ok? That's more than kylomi was doing.

      Delete
  33. Karl,
    Thank you for adding the links. You should also remove the "email exclusives" and "events" on the page too. You don't want to mislead anyone that Brio Birth is still offering anything for sale, do you? I agree with everyone else's sentiments, that really, you need to post the truth on the Facebook page. That Brio scammed others out of money. If you are hell bent on keeping that Facebook page open (which I feel is wrong), then at least tell the truth. Also, could you please get rid of that banner? "The fastest growing Childbirth Education Company in the World". It's a big fat lie too.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Ok. Help me out here. On Linked In, it says that Karl Clinger is associated with "information and technology services." And he doesn't know how to work a Facebook page? I'm a complete technological failure/idiot and even *I* know how to work a Facebook page. Something's not adding up here. Either he's playing severely stupid or he is not in the "information and technology" field. Wha?????

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Susan,

      Deleting the photo album was pretty straight forward. When I went to delete the videos there were two "edit" options. I chose the obvious one higher up on the page, which did not give a "delete" option. I then found out that the bottom "edit" button gave the "delete" option.

      Something that might explain my lack familiarity with the web interface is because my expertise in computers rarely involves graphics at all. I consult on the operating systems that run the most powerful computers in the world, including Facebook.

      I have been chastized for not recognizing sooner what the Thomases were doing. Had the tone been similar to those who have been communicating with me perhaps I would have stuck around and listened to what you all had to say. Unfortunately, posts like yours repelled me before I could get the perspective of the respectable people here. I am only here to work with those who really want to work this out.

      Delete
    2. Karl,

      I think you just caused us all to have a flashback to all the times that Kyle made grand claims about his background. I think we all now know they were false.

      Could you post your resume, details of your background or maybe a list of your certifications to back up your claims? Otherwise it really just sounds like you are trying to impress us with no proof.

      I agree with Susan that it just doesn't sound right.

      Delete
    3. Susan,

      Believe it or not, there are some among you who are nasty enough to contact people I have worked with some interesting, and false, claims. (This happened on briovent and this is pretty much the same crowd.) I have a Bachelor's Degree in Information Technology. I am just a few courses from a Master's in Information Systems. I will likely continue into a Doctorate in Digital Systems Security, but I will probably take a year or two off before I do that. I will not share my client list with you, but I see no harm in sharing a few of my certifications with you. (I am not sure why the Virtualization one appears so many times, but the Certificates of Expertise at the bottom are the most sought after ones.) https://www.redhat.com/wapps/training/certification/verify.html;jsessionid=pS+cS5gDknUQQED0PZtTPQ**.87c55fb5?certNumber=805008163234442&verify=Verify

      I have been going above and beyond to be respectful and do as you have requested (within reason). There is a substantial list of what I have done for you all that is accumulating and all I ask of you all is a little respect. You have no reason to hate me. The badgering from "anonymous" posts are largely going unanswered. It is not selective hearing. I refuse to acknowledge posters whose names start with "AN". My time is limited and I chose to address the people who address me as themselves, as time permits.

      Delete
    4. Respectfully, I must disagree. I see quite a few anonymous questions being answered, but the really tough ones go without an answer, without even an acknowledgment of the question. Since many of us are probably educators, we know the axiom about one person asking the question means that many others have the same question. Many readers are probably waiting for these questions to be answered. I know that I am eager for the answers.

      Delete
  35. Karl, you are blaming your ignorance of the scam on all of us? You couldn't see past our tone and look at the overwhelming evidence posted on Brio Vent? Didn't you have frequent interactions with Kyle and Naomi? Could you not see it for yourself? The parking pass scam, money going to the Thomases personal needs, complaints from "educators," and so on. Again, I ask where is your personal responsibility and are you planning to apologize publicly?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Karl, on briovent you promised to read the documents and listen to the recordings. If you did that how could you claim that you were ignorant of the scam? Those calls sound a lot like the letter this thread is about.

      Delete
  36. I'm certainly not looking for respect and I'm certainly not looking for respect from those I don't respect, no longer have respect for, or never respected to begin with. I don't know Karl Clinger from a hole in the wall. I do, however, now know how to spot scamming and funky-looking credentials and I can chalk that up to an excellent education from Kyle Thomas et al. I don't care what happens with the Brio name or its supposed assets. But I do think anyone who believes anything coming from anyone associated with this name (I think there are those who call it a "brand") is a complete and utter fool. But you know what they say about opinions and butt holes.

    By the way, what ever happened to Adele, that staunch supporter of Kyle?

    ReplyDelete
  37. PS: Anyone can say they "consult" on anything. One doesn't need any education, certification or license to consult. I walked across the road yesterday and consulted with my neighbors about their tree removal. So I guess you could say I "consulted on the largest plants on earth which are responsible for producing oxygen on earth." I know I'm in a very sarcastic mood but this just reeks of all things "Business 101". There's nothing more for me to contribute. I believe this is another male scam artist with grandiose ideas about his own worth.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Does anybody else notice a disturbing pattern here? Karl is willing to have entire conversations involving the deletion of some photos and videos or urinary olympics with Hathaways, but the questions he is not answering, even flat out ignoring, tell a significant story. Here's a list of the ones that pop for me:

    - what would he value Brio's current assets at? Just a number, please.

    - does he plan to continue his Brio vent lawsuit? I thought it was for libel. But now he is beginning to see it was all true, right?

    - why does he want to keep the Facebook page? It is not a unique resource for those who are actually looking for such a thing, as eloquently expressed by many experts on this very forum, and those Brio Birth fans looking for that type of resource community may number in the hundreds (if that), but certainly not in the tens of thousands.

    - can he admit his part in this? He still seems to be pointing the finger at others - you were mean to me, so I couldn't accept your information and experience! If a thin skin prevents due diligence or consideration of information that due diligence reveals, bad investments are likely.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Here is one source for what it is worth. http://www.statscrop.com/www/briobirth.com
      Notice that this is from Dec 19, 2012, and things appear to have gone down since then. according to this briobirth.com is only getting 210 visitors a day, and just over 300 pageviews, and that was when Alexa Rank was #1,233,779. Now it has a rank of 1,991,405. Also they estimate the value of the site to be $1,630, and that was before its Alexa rank dropped.

      Delete
    2. More questions that have been missed:

      - Why the "I won't do anything the Hathaways want" attitude? What if they told you to breathe?

      - What's the difference between owning a company and owning its assets and name?

      - Why was Brio Birth in Ivy's source code?

      Delete
    3. @swiss: Respect is very important to me and I have not received any from Robert and Angela Hathaway. Jay has been very respectful and that channel of communication is open. If you knew what a compassionate person Ivy was you might understand why I feel that way about them.

      The difference between owning a company and owning assets of a company is just as the question is stated. Brio Birth, LLC owned all of its own assets until one day they chose to sell assets to me, except the ownership of the name, which they retained. So, I own the domains, the social media, etc. I did not acquire the company, which would have included receivables and liabilities. I had the contract reviewed before I signed it. Kyle still owns Brio Birth, LLC. Therefore, I cannot own what he owns. It is not included in our contract. He will decide what he does with that, but I do not now, nor have I ever, had equity in Brio Birth, LLC.

      Ivy made a website that linked to many resources. Since I took down briobirth.com there is a link that she will have to remove. Brio Brith is in the source code now because she made a link to all of the childbirth education companies, so that people could learn about all of them and make an informed decision. Again, the website creating utility that Ivy used does not even give you access to edit the source code. Why is that so difficult? Am I missing something about the question?

      Delete
    4. Karl, while you may have managed some complicated song and dance whereby you bought the assets of Brio but not the debts...ever since you bought it Brio has been being run under the name of Embrion, LLC--the webpage said so, and payments were going to the Embrion PayPal account. Given that, I would think that any debts incurred during that time--like to educators who paid for trainings that aren't going to happen--are on your shoulders. I could be wrong of course, I'm not a lawyer...

      Delete
    5. http://www.dimontelaw.com/successor-liability.html

      Delete
    6. Karl, I know you don't like giving any attention to "anonymous" posts...but you really ought to go read that blog about successor liability...because I'm sure the Hathaways...who are most likely watching this blog...have read it, and are consulting with their attorneys.

      Delete
  39. Somewhere up in this massive thread, Karl asked what our motivation is behind taking down the Facebook page. In some behind-the-scenes discussions with others this week, I wrote:

    "Well, I'm not gonna quibble over the FB site with you, nor with him (Karl). I'm not as vested in its removal as some are. To be honest, YES, I would like to see it gone, but mostly because it's a monument to and a reminder of a time that I was gullible, used, abused, and hurt badly, and every time it shows up on the internet, it's a reminder to me that it's there partially because "I" helped to put it there, "I" helped to promote it and say how great it was, and that "I" unintentionally helped in the deception and abuse of many fine women in the birthing community. That's MY motivation for having it gone; that's probably pretty selfish, but it is what it is..... "

    Is this maybe a little bit of what we're all feeling here? I didn't actually identify it (fully) to myself until yesterday.....

    So, Karl, if we can find something to redeem this mess and make it worthwhile, I'd be willing to discuss it. But to leave it as-is is likely very hurtful to a lot of people, and not doing anywhere near as much good in the on-line world as you'd imagine.

    Just my two cents' worth.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Let's Be ReasonableJanuary 10, 2013 at 3:13 PM

      Very well put, and I agree.

      Delete
    2. I think there is certainly an element of a "monument" to a lot of hurt to individuals and to our community. I also think that for some it could be very triggering. I think someone above also raised a good point about why the FB page should even exist - there are other resources out there, so the "but it does so much good" argument doesn't hold much water, and it isn't going to drive traffic to briobirth.com, so instead of arguing about reasons it should not exist, maybe we should also look at the lack of reasons that it needs to. I think it's an unnecessary drain on resources that is bloated with a lot of low-quality likes that don't really mean anything except to someone like Naomi who obsesses over that number, but I wouldn't necessarily put myself in the rabid "the FB page must go down NOW" camp.

      Delete
    3. This is something that could be corrected, but I would add that another problem with the page is it's representing Brio Birth as being a functioning childbirth education organization. This is deceiving and smacks of fraud. Still another problem is the name link to a company that Karl just told is is technically owned by Kyle Thomas, even though Karl owns the assets and the right to use its name.

      Delete
    4. Oops I was a little behind the times with that comment. Should have finished the thread first.

      Delete
  40. As long as the facebook page claims that Brio is the fastest growing childbirth education company in the world, it is still a sham.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It came down at 11 p.m. EST today!

      Delete
    2. Yes, but there are still several photos with that claim in them. And really, if Kyle owns the name Brio Birth, do you even have the legal right to own a FB page with that name on it?

      Delete
    3. I don't think that Kyle ever got exclusive rights to the name "Brio Birth," so really, anyone could use the name.

      Delete
    4. I believe the site claimed that Embrion Group had "Exclusive" rights to the name. Karl would need to confirm if that is true.

      Delete
    5. Anon 2:21 - legally it may be fine for anyone to use that name, but really, at this point, who in their right mind would want to?

      Delete
  41. Thank you - maybe there is hope

    ReplyDelete
  42. Thank youl for removing that ridiculous "fastest-growing" claim, Karl.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Now if you would just promise not to revive the brio website, sell the workbook anymore, and either delete the fabebook page or at least change its name, I think I will finally be able to move on and not have to put any time into reading this blog.

      Delete
  43. Karl, regarding the workbooks -- are the remaining books considered "assets"? And any idea how many are still left at this point? Do you now control whether these get sold?

    ReplyDelete
  44. Why is the "Fastest Growing Childbirth Education" banner back up on the Brio page?? What the heck is going on???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My guess is Kyle is up to something.

      Delete
    2. I have not been on in several days. The Thomases got admin on the Facebook. If you can lie to the right person at any organization they will give you access. My people are looking into it. I will let you know what they find out.

      Karl

      Delete
    3. Karl, I can't help but think that had you posted the truth about Brio on their Facebook page while you still had access, this would have helped others see the true colors of Brio (Kyle and Naomi). I hope you do have that opportunity again. That page needs to be shut down.

      Delete
    4. Let's Be ReasonableJanuary 14, 2013 at 11:50 AM

      So replace the Brio Birth site with a page about what has happened with Kyle and Naomi. Don't put the regular site back up just put up a single page. This would let people know what is happening, and deny them any traffic to the Facebook page coming from the site.

      Delete
  45. I had a sneaking suspicion you wouldn't get rid of them that easily. Too bad. Good luck dealing with them..... it'll be a nearly full-time job, I suspect. :-(

    ReplyDelete
  46. Karl,

    Guess you know why we all wanted it to be deleted. . .

    ReplyDelete
  47. Too reminiscient of an old child's song:

    "This is the song that never ends;
    It just goes on and on, my friend.
    Some people started singing it, not knowing what it was,
    And they'll continue singing it forever just because
    This is the song that never ends"........

    ReplyDelete
  48. In the summer of 2012, someone from overseas tried quite unsuccessfully to scam me via Facebook by posing as someone from my past. Without going into detail because that part isn't pertinent here, I was able to do some sleuthing thru Facebook and with Facebook security people. It seems that there are folks from overseas--particularly from Great Britain--who get paid to "like" Fb pages. While poking around on the Brio page, I see the same kind of thing happening. So all those "likes" and "friends" are people who have absolutely no clue what they're liking and agreeing with. They get paid by the clicky pooh. Is there a way to expose that?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. And if you notice on the FB page it says that London, England, United Kingdom is the most popular city for the page.

      Delete
    2. I REALLY don't think they bought "likes" simply because I don't think they had enough money to buy the number of likes that they have. I think they got them through things like the viral sharing of stolen videos. This was discussed in a post in December.

      Delete
  49. So Karl

    Now do you believe me when I said what I said to you earlier? I told you someone was going to get greedy.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Karl,
    Can we please get an update? What's going on with Facebook?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Maybe Karl doesn't own it after all...

      Delete
  51. Re: getting paid to click. I found out that Nigerians living in London do indeed get paid for liking pages and clicking on stuff. It can be as little as 10c a click. It's not that expensive at all and totally do-able even for those who don't have a lot of (their own) money.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It was posted earlier 20,000 Likes is only around $300 to buy.

      Delete
  52. I think Karl doesn't want to support Brio's facebook page anymore. The site now points to WebMD.com. I guess that is an improvement.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. When I go to the Brio web it directs to the facebook page - must have been a temporary link to WebMD, unfortunately

      Delete
    2. I'm still being taken to WebMD.com. Hopefully everyone else will too.

      Delete
    3. I'm getting WebMD.com too. It lands on the Childbirth Education options page on that site, which does not include Brio!

      Delete
    4. But the second option is Bradley Method. LOL!!

      Delete
  53. Goes to WebMD for me, too. Maybe you need to refresh your browser or something?

    ReplyDelete
  54. Has anyone considered contacting the news reporter that broke the news on the fake parking passes to do an investigation on Brio Birth to expose everything?

    ReplyDelete
  55. Karl, can you tell us if you have turned off their access to emails? I see they still use info@briobirth.com on the FB page. Did you take over their Kyle and Naomi accounts as well, or are they still using those?

    ReplyDelete
  56. Hey, did anyone else notice that Karl's Facebook profile picture of January 4th appears to be Kyle? https://www.facebook.com/otherguys2013?fref=ts

    ReplyDelete
  57. Wait! Just realized Kyle set up a profile named Karl Clinger (Brio Stuff) but it's not Karl. https://www.facebook.com/otherguys2013?fref=ts Is Karl aware of this??

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That page goes back to 2010, so it doesn't look like that's anything recent. Not really sure if Karl knows about it or not. Karl?

      Delete
    2. That is weird. I don't even know what to think at this moment.

      What about this fake profile?
      https://www.facebook.com/briobirth.admin?fref=ts

      Aren't these against FB policy?

      Delete
  58. Looks like the Brio Facebook page is back to using the stolen pictures method of garnering likes.

    ReplyDelete
  59. I don't feel like an angry-looking baby "talking" about being pissed off is the nicest way to advertise a birth business, either. Yuck.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ummm...yeah. I just saw that. I was thinking "gee, I think they protest too much!"

      Delete
  60. I think the moderator needs to start a new post listing all the problems with Brio's Facebook page and all of the aliases they have so we can share it on Facebook.
    I would also like a response from Karl on the fake profile of his https://www.facebook.com/otherguys2013?fref=ts

    Is anyone in contact with him?

    ReplyDelete
  61. I also just discovered that embriongroup.com forwards to the Brio Facebook page.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It is re-directing to Web MD for me.

      Delete
  62. The silence is deafening.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Karl is out of town for two weeks on a business trip; don't know how often he'll be checking this.

    ReplyDelete