Saturday, January 5, 2013

From Embryos to Eggs?

In the wake of the parking pass scandal last spring, some rumors were swirling about a "breakup" of the Clingers and the Thomases that would effectively cut Brio's funding and cripple the scam.  Unfortunately, those rumors did not seem to bear out the events that so many of us had hoped for.

This blog has been largely silent about Karl Clinger and his association with Brio Birth.  There have been a few different reasons for that over time.  One was mixed feelings that did include an element of compassion for him as a victim of the Thomases' scamming.  One was a hope, for a brief, shining time last spring, that he would do the right thing on his own and shut Brio down for good.  And one was that, as evinced by the lawsuit that he is still waging against Melissa (for you newbies, she was the author of Brio Vent, a previous blog dedicated to exposing the truth about Brio / Kyle and Naomi Thomas and their scams), he is not above bullying, including by abuse of the legal system.  Now, however, I feel compelled to break that silence.

Coming soon from the Clingers: OVO Birth.  It appears that this is to be a replacement for Brio Birth.  So first we had Brio - the name of Kyle Thomas' little proposed empire, which purported to mean so many things, while making people think of toy trains.  When he started exploiting the birth community, he also claimed it as related to the Greek word embrion, which is the basis of embryo, meaning life within.  When he started having to run from federal judgments and mountains of other debt and threatened or pending litigation, along came Karl, the attempted human reputation shield, with Embrion Group, Inc - a Nevada corporation, which was never fully legally incorporated, and after a time of waiting for the steps to be completed, had its status revoked.  Now there is to be OVO Birth - OVO, obviously, from the Latin for egg.  Ivy has protested to sources who wish to remain anonymous that it is solely her project, that Karl is not involved.  A simple whois lookup of the domain, however, tells a different story. From an outside perspective, Karl seems to be as uninvolved with OVO Birth as he was with Brio Birth.  

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

At the same time, an anonymous source has revealed that Karl is attempting to sell Brio Birth... to the Hathaways!  Points for brass cojones, anyway.  He put himself forth as a continuation of Brio Birth, using most of the same principals in the company, collecting money on behalf of Brio Birth, even doing a foreign entry into CO as "Brio Birth", meaning he has assumed successor liability for all of Brio Birth's debts, including a $140,000 judgement against Brio for the Hathaways, and he turns around and offers to sell Brio's assets to them.  Apparently, this package is supposed to be worth a lot of money:

  • A broken website containing outdated and recycled blog posts, a lot of bad links, and an inaccurate list of educators, many of whom have publicly denounced Brio Birth
  • Over 20,000 likes on Facebook, many of which are poor quality - based on information and belief, they are either bought or they are the result of memes, many of them stolen, going viral - in other words, likes that will not be likely to convert into any kind of paying customer, and even ad revenue on a monetized site would be questionable
  • A large amount of intellectual property stolen from a yahoogroup that was created by educators, for educators
  • A workbook that contains a great deal of intellectual property that Brio itself doesn't have the rights to, and multiple cease and desist notices sent against it
This anonymous source reports that the Clingers' plan is to use Brio to drive traffic to OVO, then post all the stolen IP publicly, claiming that they are "giving it back to the birth community".  It is unclear whether Kylomi will be involved in any way with this new project, or whether they will be profiting in any way from it.  

88 comments:

  1. I guess we were all right and Karl is actually Kyle, just in another body.

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  2. As the creator of some of that intellectual property, it was bad enough when Brio took it in the first place, using it in ways that had not been part of their promises, without the promised compensation or even proper credit. Then they claim they sold it - something they didn't even really own - to Karl Clinger. That's hot goods. Don't most states have laws about that?

    The right thing to do would be to bury it. Posting it publicly would not be "giving it back to the birth community." It never belonged to "the birth community" in the first place. It would simply be stealing in a different way. And this OVO Birth would be gathering credit for itself, acting like it's some kind of Robin Hood, not reflecting credit back on the creators?

    Smells like rotten eggs to me.

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    1. This is Ivy. If you do not want what you have written published please email me and let me know what portion is yours and it will not be published, simple as that. No credit will be taken for work not done by me. Everything that is published will have the authors name on it and contact information so that if parents or educators need clarification they can seek it from the source. I have been very clear with everyone I've talked to that this will be an Open Source website, very different from Brio. I am not seeking educators. I haven't even decided if I will in actuality use any of Brio's workbook, as I feel I can find people who will want to participate of their own free will, and feel I can make something just as good, if not better than Brio's workbook. It is simply an option that I have and am considering. I am more than willing to work with anyone here so I will share my email, please be respectful: ivyrclinger@gmail.com
      I do not frequent this blog often, and this is not my main address, but if you have any questions feel free to ask me directly through email and I will do my best to answer them as best as I can. I have nothing to hide, and I'm not quite sure how something that is given can be a scam, but feel free to enlighten me. I hope that the work that do can probe itself otherwise.

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    2. Ivy people have done that over and over and over, and Karl, Kyle, Naomi, and now you never take the stuff down. Since so much has been contested as stolen why don't you just take down everything, and then ask people who wish to give you stuff to send it in again?

      Oh and as long as you continue to support Brio I won't believe a word you say, so shut it down, and then we can talk.

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    3. How do you suggest that I shut it down? It does not belong to me. Yes, my husband has the power to do that, but I do not tell him what to do any more than he tells me what to do. I was not involved in drawing up contracts, making deals or anything other than cleaning up the never ending messes that took place in my house while the Thomas's were here, so I do not presume to strong-arm my own husband. I do however have influence over him, and when a logical solution presents itself I will be happy to make an argument or case for it. Blanket statements and accusations are not logical solutions though. No one has come to ME and told ME who they are, what is theirs, and what they would like ME to do about it. The articles posted on Brio by Nathalie and Christy were bought and paid for. It is not logical therefore, to "take it all down" and start from scratch.

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    4. Boohoo let's all shed a tear for Ivy. Yes it makes absolute sense. Your husband has been running a scam that was started by Kyle for over a year now. I know he claims that he didn't know what HIS EMPLOYEES were doing, but it is still his responsibility.

      If you don't know for certain that you have the right to use something take it down. That is what a real business would do.

      The damage you have and continue to do to this community is unforgiveable.

      Have you bothered to tell your husband that you want him to shut down Brio and walk away from it? If not you are just as guilty as he is.

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    5. Obviously an actual productive conversation is not going to happen here. I again defer to my email address if anyone has any actual concerns, comments or suggestions.

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    6. I prefer not to wait and see what you post to see if it is my intellectual property or not. If I don't give it to you, you don't have permission. Naomi stole some of my content from the *private* educators' group on Yahoo. She supposedly removed it, but there's no way to know if she kept files on her computer. I don't know if you have that stuff now or not, and I have neither the time nor inclination to, in effect, fill you in on everything I've created just to make sure you don't have it. The simple solution is to not post stuff you don't have permission to post. You don't take it down when asked, you just don't post it in the first place. That is the moral path.

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    7. Ivy in Colorado if Karl bought it while you were married, then yes you own it too. As the owner of Brio Birth you should demand of your co-owner that it be taken down immediately. That is the law Ivy.

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    8. I concur with this:
      "I prefer not to wait and see what you post to see if it is my intellectual property or not. If I don't give it to you, you don't have permission. Naomi stole some of my content from the *private* educators' group on Yahoo."
      I had one file in particular that took me hours to research and create, and if I find it posted anywhere without my permission, I will wage a sh*t storm the likes of which you have never seen.

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  3. Just want to say that is horse shit. Book is already "public". Google Kyle Thomas Brio Birth Christie. It's the 3rd or so link.

    http://c560475.r75.cf2.rackcdn.com/BrioBirthEducatorManual.pdf

    And I'm not buying it that Karl is a good guy at all. We ALL WARNED HIM, and he continued to scam people. It is just as culpable as those educators that stayed with Brio and makes them look good. I'd hate to call out a name but hint here...look at Baltimore, MD. I cannot believe with all the evidence anyone would continue to scam women.

    I'm also calling out Ivy. She is part of this scam as well. Then to go and attempt to use those likes for her gain...VERY SNEAKY ASS. She is Naomi incarnate. She deleted posts yesterday b/c she didn't like was being said on "her" business page. Not only that she engaged in that debate and back talk. Who would want that. A business needs to disassociate emotionally and she is not able to that.

    The Hathaways will never buy this scam. That is just too rich and has me peeing my pants. WTH do they think? "Oh, I'll keep the scam going to get money from other people and hey, then I'll just ask those people to pay me! Yeah that'll work! They gotta want this because then they will make so much more money! Yeah Yeah that's my angle." While the Hathaways may not be all tech savy and such and need to step more into the 21st century, they don't have dumb ass written on their foreheads.

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  4. The saddest part of all of this is what it's done to the birth community. We are some pretty opinionated people and we could get rather strident at times, but it never went beyond raised voices and hotheaded internet posts. All of this has escalated to an entirely different level-- deceit, obfuscation, abuse of many types, theft, threats, lawsuits....... The amount of crap that has occurred in our lovely community is staggering. Is this what happens when we let men run our "women's business"? What can we do to prevent this from happening again? How can we heal the rifts?

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    1. A friend of mine pointed me to this post. She was so worried that I might think that it was her that had outed me! The funny thing is, I know it wasn't her, because technically it was me! I told these "anonymous" women first-hand what I'm working on. I'm not hiding it, anyone who has any questions can come to me directly, and I welcome it. A lot of what has been said in this blog has been stated as fact, and the only thing I'd like to say about that is that a lot of this post was talked about in a "secret" group, but nothing has been decided. I just have a bunch of ideas that I'm tossing around, and a framework of a website, but nothing is absolutely set in stone. Except the Open Source idea. That is what my whole project is rooted on. So calm down a bit! I'm right here: ivyrclinger@gmail.com Ask away! Get it from the source, not some anonymous third party blog.
      One question: If my husband builds websites, and has the ability to host those websites via ipower, WHY would I go to anyone else to host my own website? I am trying to use as little money as possible to build and host this site! I am building the site myself. I am using a template that is easy to use.

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    2. Problem is we can't believe the source. Until you shut down the scam that is Brio and return the stolen IP everything you do will be tainted by it. Go straight no more scams.

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    3. How do you suggest I return stolen IP that doesn't belong to me? Angela's suggestion of serving my husband divorce papers is not an option, as I love him and his imperfect human nature, and a few pages in a workbook are not worth ruining a family over. Any other suggestion is welcome though.

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    4. Stop using it, stop claiming to own it, and certainly don't use it to try to get your new project up and running. Build that from scratch instead of trying to build upon Brio.

      Ivy are you proud of Karl for what Brio has done to the birth community? Really?

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    5. Just for clarification, I NEVER said you should service your husband divorce papers. Here is that comment in it's entirety:

      Let me put it more simply. Karl made a bad investment. He believed Kyle and thought he'd get rich off the childbirth industry. He sunk his own money (and yours...you are married) into into this scam and now he can't seem to get out. And rather than doing the morally right thing to do...shutting Brio down completely and instantly the moment you realized the immoral, unethical and illegal nature of Brio....he chose to "protect his investment", even though it's not your livelihood. Money over morals.

      Until Karl shuts Brio down completely....anything you or he do will be tainted by the reputation of Brio. Because you guys are solely responsible for it's continued existence. Then, when you add in other references to Brio (source code, the leaf in your logo, directing Brio web traffic)...it just makes the whole thing smell even more fishy. Those are the consequences of making a bad investment and then defending that bad investment even after learning the immoral, unethical and illegal fundamentals of Brio...that just makes it that much worse.

      The only "right" thing to do here is to shut down the briobirth.com website completely. Just shut if off. Quit selling the workbooks of stolen IP (not to mention the fact that they are being sold by Embrion, whose incorporation has been revoked by the State of Nevada). Quit listing the teachers that have publicly denounced Brio and demanded that their names be removed from your list for over a YEAR now. Just turn the whole damn website OFF! Then remove ALL of the FB pages related to Brio. Yes, you will lose your investment, and all those precious "likes". But if protecting pregnant women is your priority, then it's the only right thing to do....even if it means you lose money due to a bad investment.

      When I came out to the public with what I knew about Kyle, Naomi, and Bradley Reborn...do you think I didn't know that it would cause major chaos in my life? Do you think I didn't know that I would be called a liar and be the recipient of so much vile hatred? Of course I did. And I did it anyway. Why? Because it was the right thing to do. To sit idly by and let Bradley Reborn continue would have been morally and ethically WRONG. So I did the right thing...even though it wrecked havoc on my personal and professional life for years! It SUCKED!!!!!! But I did the right thing. And that is all I'm asking you to do. Do the right thing.

      I know you're going to say that you have no control over it...it's all Karl's thing. I'm calling BS. If my husband was involved with a company like Brio I would be so far up his behind he wouldn't know his own name! No way on earth would I tolerate that! And if he refused the shut it down, he'd find himself looking for a divorce attorney.

      /quote

      So, just to clarify....I said that I *MY* husband were involved with a company like Brio, and refused to do the right thing, he'd find himself looking for a divorce attorney. Because I could not be married and raise children with someone who would be in any way involved with a company like Brio Birth.

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    6. I have never claimed to own anything of Brio's. Everything I have built is from scratch. I am neither proud, nor ashamed of anything Karl has been accused of doing to the birth community. If you have any other questions, comments, concerns or complaints, please feel free to email me.

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    7. Wow neither proud nor ashamed of your husband? That's a great marriage.

      Karl is trying to make money off of the birth community through Brio. I'll bet that money is used for stuff for you(what little there is), so I guess you are making money off of it too.

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    8. A "few pages in a workbook" aren't worth ruining a marriage over? If that's how you're looking at it, then you should really get into the business of selling blinders. Because it isn't "a few pages in a workbook". It's called theft. It's called lying. It's immoral, wrong, and illegal. That is what is at stake. It speaks to character.

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  5. I noticed their Facebook page which had over 27,000 likes is down to 25,388!

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    1. I don't recall ever seeing it at 27K...are you sure of that?

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  6. How is this even legal? Scam after scam......

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  7. No I actually think Karl may be worse than Kyle.. Who'd have thunk?

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  8. This is Karl Clinger. All everybody wanted was to get rid of the Thomases. How fickle everybody here is. If there is any doubt as to who is behind this entire blog, let me make my guesses and I will share the results of my subpoena request when it comes back: Robert and Angela HATHAWAY. (Yes, heirs to the Bradley fortune.) Doesn't anybody see this as a conflict of interest? While all of the people behind this are emotionally charged for having been "duped" by Kyle Thomas, I was the only one who required a written agreement if I was going to do anything to help Brio. (My contract predates any judgements against the Thomases and Ellen Contard, by the way.) My contributions were for technology and capital. What I got out of the deal was company assets. I also had exclusive and unlimited rights to use the name "Brio Birth," which I happily gave up when I shut the Thomases out of all of the accounts. I was not ever really involved in Brio Birth. I did not understand the motivation, especially of somebody with a judgement against them, to shut it down. I resolved to at least give the Thomases an opportunity to make it successful so that they could pay off the debts that they had incurred. As 2012 came to a close it was obvious that the Thomases were not going to turn a profit, nor pay debts if they did, so I shut them out. I have not made any decisions, yet, as to what I will be able to do to either offset my loss or make people feel better. The Thomases are gone. This is what you have all asked for. Now that I have done that somehow I am your new target.

    Isn't it suspicious to anybody else that the answer of the Hathaways is to "take it down" and "destroy" it? We will not hear an end to this theme as long as the conflict of interest exists. If this is the AAHCC (Hathaways) behind this then this will be considered an attempt to create unfair competition and the Thomases could even have the judgement against them dismissed. This is not far fetched, since the lawsuit against them was for using the name "Bradley," which was suggested by Melissa Evans (who is in collusion with the AAHCC, if this blog is written by a Hathaway.). More to come...

    First it was Intellectual Property and people needed to get credit, but then I offered to credit everybody who wrote anything in the workbook. Then it all changed! "Do the right thing... destroy it. It is not worth anything. Give it to me and I will destroy it," says Robert Hathaway. If it is not worth anything then why destroy it? I have offered to do the right thing if I am convinced that it is truly the right thing and not for the purposes of furthering the Hathaways' business.

    The Asset Interest Letter was sent to several people, not just the AAHCC, and I am encouraged by the response. I am still leaning toward stripping "Brio Birth" from the entire thing and giving it away. I am, however, open to sincere suggestions.

    A side note: Ivy has made it clear that she, too, doesn't want anything to do with anything that came from Brio. She has had a front seat view of all of the bad business decisions made by Brio Birth.

    The word "scam" gets thrown around an awful lot in this blog. "Making money off pregnant women" has always been the charge associated with that. Doulas, midwives, educators and most of all Birth Education Companies all fall into that category. If anybody is under the allusion that I have made anything as a result of my contributions then you are wrong. It is highly suspect that this charge is being handed down by the Hathaways, and perpetuated by so many here who serve on boards of other education companies.

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    1. Karl, why do you have a subpoena in to find out who is running this blog? Is it really worth the money to you to find this information? The blog has such a small readership...do you REALLY think it matters to your business?

      It's so sweet that you have a written contract with Kyle. Pat yourself on the back and consider yourself SO much smarter than the people who didn't have contracts. Of course keep in mind that most of the people who didn't have contracts were told they would be given then upon their first in-person meeting with Kyle in Denver...so it seemed somewhat acceptable. And then when the contracts weren't available as promised...the people felt stuck. They had been flown from all parts of the country to Denver and were supposed to conduct a training. What were they to do? Not like they were going to sit in a corner all week not doing any work until it was time to fly home. They felt that they would be abandoning all of the educators who they were committed to supporting. They kept being strung along regarding getting contracts. They stayed on to help the educators--NOT the Thomases. I did talk to someone recently who had been offered the role of Regional Rep (apparently she was offered it without even putting her hat into the ring because of her stellar reputation in the birth community). She asked for a contract, and was told "that's not the way it works." She walked away because of not having a written contract. I wish her experience had been made public back then--that she had at least given a "heads up" to the person who did end up being the regional rep for her region that "hey, they refused to give me a contract--I think they are lying about intending to give you a contract."

      For the record, I did not contribute to the workbook, so you will not hear from me about taking stuff out of it. But I agree with the poster above who states that you would be considered a lot more ethical if you worked from the perspective of not using anything that you don't have explicit consents for rather than using stuff until people ask you to stop. Many people who contributed to the workbook don't follow this blog, and thus would have no idea that the offer has been made for them to ask for their stuff not to be used. Their names are (were?) listed in a credits page near the front of the workbook. If you want to use the workbook, do the right thing and contact each and every one of those people.

      As for the idea that Angela and Robert are running this blog...I think you are wrong because Angela posts on here periodically using her own name. She seems to be one of the few people who isn't scared of being sued by you guys.

      But if it were the Hathaways behind this blog...to answer the question of why they would want Brio to go away rather than paying off the debt...come on...is it really reasonable to think that Kylomi will be paying off that debt via Brio? NO! I could have told you this back when the judgement originally came down. It's just simple math--the payment schedule was much too aggressive to allow Kylomi any hope of making Brio a success. They have to give their earnings to the Hathaways, leaving no money to run the business and to build the business. The only way the Hathaways have any hope of seeing some of their money is if Kyle and Naomi stop trying to make Brio work, and go out and get regular jobs with regular paychecks that the Hathaways can garnish a portion of.

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    2. Whoever just posted this, thank you. Sincerely. You seem very level headed. You did not make any assumptions or inferences. I was going to walk away from the discussion, but this post makes me want to stay. I could see how so many people got strung along.

      For the record, I think it is Robert making certain inflammatory posts here as Anonymous. (Language analysis is getting really good and I have plenty of emails from Robert for comparison.)

      I know it is not reasonable to expect anything from Kyle. Kyle and I are not exactly seeing eye to eye right now. I just had to file a police report against him for accessing my PayPal account fraudulently. However, one of the options I presented to Jay Hathaway on the phone was to sell me Kyle's debt in exchange for the company assets I have. They are never going to see anything from Kyle and I probably wouldn't either, but I can have some fun with it.

      Anyways, I am going to continue to have posts done on the facebook page, but I did redirect the website to the facebook page until I decide what to do. Honestly, I still think there are going to be a few people here that are not going to be happy with that. Oh well.

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  9. Actually, Karl, you are *not* the only one who required a written agreement to help Brio. [Not to mention that many people asked for them, but Kyle always managed to weasel around it "for now," and those people just had more investment in the whole thing than you did. That doesn't mean you were savvy, it just means you were disinterested.] You are not even the first. My husband did. He has a written loan agreement with Brio, signed by Kyle as a principal of the company, that predates ANYTHING you could call up to scratch. You want to know what has me emotionally charged right now? I'll tell you - your whole thing about Brio paying off its debts, blah blah blah. I have just become privy to some old Facebook conversations, including one from last August about how EVERYTHING BRIO WAS RUNNING THROUGH EMBRION, Kyle and Naomi were not profiting personally in any way, and the money was going to pay off their debts. Certain specific debts were mentioned, but the most important one - Brio's SENIOR CREDITOR, yes, even before the Hathaways and their judgment - was missed. Educators were contacted and told they would receive a refund in installments. The regional reps were allegedly contacted [it didn't seem they got the email Kyle claimed he sent, but they were supposed to] to ask how much they were owed based on their verbal contracts, negotiations, and work. Not a DIME was ever paid on a legally documented loan, and no contact from Brio [the Thomases, or you], no kind of attempt, was made to do the right thing. You think you want to offset a bad investment? That loan has caused our family budget to be extremely strapped, not to mention the debt [we were free of consumer debt before Brio] that I ran up paying expenses for Brio that were promised reimbursement, then not reimbursed [despite an expense report being filed], as well as lifestyle changes brought on by working ridiculous hours trying to put my money where Kyle's mouth was... You want to talk about how you always do the right thing? I sometimes have to juggle for grocery money, and not a single outreach attempt was made. So forgive me if I have trouble taking your sermons seriously.

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  10. I will give Ivy a good deal of benefit of doubt. I have talked with her at length, and I believe her views against Brio for several reasons. She even sent me Adele's story last May. Absolutely mind blowing, and one would have to be dense not to see the implications there. I would love to see it published here, though I understand why it's not. I honestly can't see how the two of you could have such polar opposite views toward Brio and not have it mess with your relationship, but if you can, good on you. Forgive me, though, if I don't trust your assertion that the Thomases are gone for a single nanosecond. After all, I of all people know how they try to operate from the shadows. I also thought, after talking to Ivy several months ago, that you were actually shutting Brio down, yet there you were again and again helping them with their next get rich quick scheme. I know what it's like to be trapped in that emotional spell, and I really don't have a reason at this point to trust that you've broken it.

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  11. Also, just to correct a bit of a technicality in your tirade, there is no judgment against me. The judgment is against Brio, and is after my separation from them. It was very well understood at the settlement conference that we were separated. That settlement conference was quite interesting. Especially the part where Kyle made representations he could never have borne out if you were getting the assets. [I have my own thoughts on that whole issue, but I will keep them to myself for now.] Just so you know, such an arrangement predating the settlement would make Kyle have committed fraud, and you an accessory. I can certainly attest that I would never have signed the settlement agreement, had I known such an agreement between you and Kyle [you and Brio?] existed while he was making material representations incompatible with those facts [if they are facts], and I doubt the Hathaways would have either. They would probably be within their rights to file for a recission of the settlement based on that information. Take that one to your friendly lawyer who loves to help you with your legal business - though what I've seen of it looks like a whole lot of bullying and abuse of process, JMO.

    Oh, and while I'm correcting technicalities, your continued beef - and, I'm assuming, your buddy Kyle's - about Melissa suggesting the name "Bradley Reborn" is, simply put, laughable. Sure, Melissa suggested it. Didn't invest in it and expect it to get used. She didn't stamp her feet, pitch a Naomi-esque fit, and threaten in order to get it used. There was only one name on the paperwork, only one name of a person who had the fiat to decide whether to actually use that name or not. I'll give you a hint: it wasn't Melissa Evans. No suggestions from anyone - myself, Melissa, the HOA president - mean anything if you're not the person filling out the paperwork and putting your name on it. Continuing to try and throw Melissa under the bus on that issue only makes you look ridiculous. The AAHCC didn't go after the person who SUGGESTED using "Bradley" in the trade name. They [rightly] went after the person who USED it.

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    1. My understanding Ellen, and please correct me if I'm wrong, was that Melissa's use of the name "Bradley Reborn" was supposed to be more of an inside joke, and not really a suggestion for an organization name? And further, my understanbding is that several people advised Kyle against using it...but like you say, his name is on the paperwork.

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    2. I've spoken to Melissa about this issue. From what I've heard from her, that is exactly how it all went down.

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  12. As to the workbook, I agree with others who have said so, you should just leave it alone. Selling it at this point would be unethical. There are multiple C&Ds on it, and other things that do not have C&Ds that are being used without permission. I'll send a C&D, too, if I have to. I am one of the primary authors and editors - had my words and hands somewhere in almost all of the written content that wasn't a specific article. I'm credited as the... chief editor? Something? I'll have to look it up... on the credits page that we had to fight for tooth and nail. Why? In no small part because there was one person who had done yeoman duty on the workbook whose name Kyle didn't want in there because of some silly personal drama. You might have even realized by now how Kyle lets his personal feelings wreak disaster. I'm assuming they gave you the Yahoo group IP too. That was outright STOLEN, and is in general personally owned by the ladies who put it up to share with a trusted group of colleagues on the Yahoo group that Naomi took down and stole all the content in a fit of temper that she was not allowed to be an admin on it. [Wonder why.]

    Bottom line - your actions since about June of 2011 make it very, very hard for me [and probably a lot of other people] to trust that what you advertise is true, that the Thomases are really gone, and that you will do the right thing if you continue with any birth-related projects. Trust is an earned commodity. You have a lot of opportunities to earn it right now, but you seem to be determined to make anything but the decisions that will do so.

    Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not on the board of any education companies. I speak only for myself, from my experiences and opinions. Yes, I do "make money off of pregnant women," in the same way that a handyman makes money off of homeowners - by providing valuable, real products and services. That's not what makes Brio a scam. If you can't see the difference, you really should not be working in this field.

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    1. Again, Ellen, thank you. Your posts were heartfelt and respectful. briobirth.com points to the facebook page. That should resolve any IP issues. No educators are listed anywhere. The Thomases have not had access to the facebook page since Wednesday. Understand, that I am doing what any reasonable person would do. I am trying to salvage anything of value. I will not even consider the Brio Birth manual as a legitimate asset to the company and will remove it from my holdings. If there is anything reasonable that will help those affected heal please let me know. I would like to think that I am moving in that direction.

      Sincerely,


      Karl Clinger

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    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    3. Karl,
      I commend you for doing what is right and hope that what you say is true. I was the owner of the Yahoo group, I started and put things on there and then other teachers did. Naomi lied to have it shut down, but I got it back up when I told Yahoo what was going on. She took everything from there, I don't believe anything belonged to Brio except some logos. So please honor all the women and don't take what belongs to them.

      Delete
    4. Dorene,

      Please give me some information about the yahoo group (like where it is). I have pretty strong contacts at both Yahoo and Facebook. (The Thomases tried to take over the facebook page, too, but I made a call.) I remember making a call to Yahoo, but I do not remember the specifics. I only knew what the Thomases had told me at the time. If I can gain access to any of that you can have it back. Let me see what I can do.

      Thanks,


      Karl

      Delete
    5. Thank you Karl for your efforts.

      As a former Regional Rep, I've got to tell you that I'm doubtful there is any childbirth related IP in Brio that was created by Naomi or Kyle. All of the training materials for new educators that were available up until I did the Ocean City, NJ training in April 2011 were created by people other than Naomi/Kyle (I did Business 101 in NJ, Kyle never made arrangements to Skype in, and even if he had, I planned to have "technical difficulties" because I didn't want his business and tax advice going to my trainees). All of the teaching aids for classes, all of the forms for educators to fill out for certification...it was all created by others. The only documents I recall seeing that were created by Naomi/Kyle were stuff for pitching to investors.

      I'll lend weight to what Ellen said--I never received an e-mail from Kyle asking how much I felt he owed me. Since I was involved with 3 in-person trainings, and a high number of virtual trainings (I'd have to check my records to see how many), I think I'm owed the 3rd or 4th highest amount of the reps. I've long since given up hope of getting that money.

      I will also request that you remove the picture on the Facebook page from the Denver training that has most of the Regional Reps in it, and remove the picture from the Ocean City training that shows the Educator Binders and gift bags that I made. I'm asking for them to be removed because I am in the Denver picture, and my name is on all of the binders from Ocean City (and I took the picture, so technically I own it), and I really don't like that my image/name is being used to promote Brio. Both of these photos are in the album about Brio history.

      Delete
    6. Oh...and Naomi/Kyle created some high priced marketting materials...

      Delete
    7. Jenn,

      Please confirm that the pictures you referenced are gone.

      Thank you,


      Karl

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    8. Thank you Karl, you seem to have gone "above and beyond."

      Delete
    9. Karl,

      You need to scrub the little collection of awesomeness photos too. MANY MANY are stolen images from around the web. A few you can easily just find yourself. Also please consider deleting the cochlear implant video. It is viral from Brio and while I think it's great more people know about it; it is not a brio video and they lied about that as well.

      Delete
    10. Thank you from me too, Karl. You removed photos I was going to ask to have removed; I appreciate your doing it BEFORE I even asked.

      Delete
    11. I am working with my development team today. Sorry I have not had more time to respond. I will check back in later this evening. If there is something that needs to credit to the original author or needs to be deleted please post the link so that I can find it easily.

      Thanks,


      Karl

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    12. Karl,
      this entire album
      https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.388617184487138.113447.183429675005891&type=3 There are a few Brio Images there, but if you want to add them back, you can do that easily. Nearly 1/2 to 3/4 of these images are stolen. I can tell you I have contacted artists and a few had been removed. Others have contacted artists as well.

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=227366017336828&set=vb.183429675005891&type=3&theater This video is still going viral!!! None of these people no who really owns it. Naomi or Kyle lifted it from youtube.

      heck, just delete the entire video album as well. The only video that is brio made way back when that actually really doesn't say much about brio.

      Now do you understand the true ramifications of supporting this system Karl? Please I hope you do! This company was supported and thousands of people have not a clue they played a part in making in look like something amazing. These videos are not theirs to share. The photos are not theirs to share. I'd get rid of these and fast before any of the artists that did get stuff removed or haven't even thought of yet decide to sue you for giving no credit nor gaining permission to have this posted as yourself.

      Again, I'm not against helping women. I'm against scamming them and lying to them. That has clearly been done here. I truly applaud you for want and striving to do what is right. Do not think keeping this page up and running as it stands now will help heal anything. Start something fresh and clean without any tainting. Do something completely right! You can make whatever venture you desire a great success. You do not need these "fans" of this page to make you a success.

      And again, yes, I kept saying they did something, but over the last couple of months as I started looking at it more and more (fan page that is) I realized that it reached so much further than the birth community. One of the artists that I did contact was none all to happy about his Thanksgiving image being taken. You are very lucky he has not sued you or that is Brio Birth aka Embrion Group.

      Delete
  13. I can verify what Dorene is saying, as I helped her with the shutdown of the Yahoo group and I personally stood up to Kyle's bullying and threats as it was being taken down. I urge you to honor Dorene's request to respect the women who shared their IP. It's the ethical, honest thing to do.

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    Replies
    1. Karl,

      I too will back up Pam and Dorene on this yahoo group thing. I don't know if the group Dorene has is still around, but I will tell you what happened. I put files into the original group. When the facebook group fiasco happened, I got a funny feeling and pulled all my created files (one which was a big edit from another CBE group so I don't even own the rights to it) and another showing the diaper changes to a newborn baby. I also had articles (some of which I didn't care about b/c you can find them elsewhere), but I go back to the "credit and/or compensation for research". You should consider ANY word docs, pdfs, open office, powerpoints, etc. the sole ownership of the EDUCATORS. You should consider research articles the same. If you really truly wanted to share this with the world you'd open a google drive account, upload it all and provide access to everyone to download.

      Delete
  14. Karl,

    I'm sorry that this has put you in such a difficult position. It does seem that you're working hard to put things right, and there's whole lot to put right.

    I'd like to discuss my loan with you privately, if that works for you. I am open to any good-faith effort to resolve this issue-- my anger derives entirely from feeling like the obligation wasn't being taken seriously.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Chris,

      I welcome an email or phone call anytime. Evenings are good.

      Karl

      Delete
    2. Karl, is the info@briobirth e-mail a good one to use? Mine is christopher dot contard at gmail

      Delete
  15. I'll make sure Dorene sees this, but here's the situation. The group was set up by Dorene and people added their materials quite early on, before any of the blowups; Naomi was later added as a "courtesy", as she requested, and if I recall correctly, the name of the group was then changed from something very generic (I don't remember the starting name) to a Brio Educator's Group or something similar. After the first false report to Yahoo by Kyle/Naomi (which they insinuated was the fault of the AAHCC -- nothing like trying to inflame the masses), it was re-instated. Once it was learned that the takedown had actually been THEIR doing and that they were threatening to take it down again, Naomi was removed from the "courtesy admin" position, and all the member-contributors were urged to remove what they wanted protected. Then members either deleted themselves or were deleted, so that if it was forced to be turned back over to Naomi, there would be nothing left except an empty shell of a Yahoo group. However, sources knew that Naomi had already copied everything in there and was prepared to start another educators' FB group. Those on the "transition team" (remember that one?) urged Kylomi NOT to use the old IP, but to allow people to add back in only what they wanted to share. Since most of us were never granted access to the new group, we do not know what, if anything, was actually shared. Best case scenario, it's on a computer or thumb drive belonging to Brio; worst case scenario, there's a Brio Yahoo group somewhere with that old information on it. We can prove the ownership of many of the materials, because some were shared on previous birth educator groups over 10 years ago -- the trail of ownership is rock solid.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Yes, and what really ticked me off is that I had a feeling about a month prior to this Pam and removed all of the stuff I put in there. It was not much, but it just really peeved me off. Then when the new yahoo group was opened by Naomi, viola, my stuff was there. I was a little surprised at the time and I don't really know why I was. The email that came out about the new group made it seems files would be removed. Several of us had to turn into yahoo files we wanted because Naomi said they needed two business after we called her out on her lie. And to make it clear Karl, it is not so much that the Thomases are involved/not involved and you took them out of the picture and then think Brio should survive. It's the fact that all that work was not even made by them and you wanted to continue make a profit off it. I am still very wary of the facebook page even being active at this moment. People (even you have shown this) have faults and greed comes in. I could see in few months you thinking ah, let's see what I can make of this now since I calmed the masses. Not saying you HAVE said this, but you are human. Delete the entire thing! Dissolve the company in NV and CO. Do not continue making a profit in any fashion off of the goodness of the people who started this.

    I have another question as well...what are you going to tell all those new educators that just took some training with them or paid a fee to them? I don't know people right now, but I know on the facebook page there were several that were praising the trainings recently. Are you going to refund their money? Are you going to be honestly with them that they cannot have access to the workbook and files?

    Karl, I told you a long time ago the issues I had. I told you on the other blog as well. I posted as anon mostly on there as well, but showing my name now. I told you to pray on this and to listen to the Holy Spirit. I feel you ignored God a lot in all of this. Make your amends now; do the right thing and shut it all down. Do not try to use it to flood traffic to something else. Start fresh and clean and build from there. You will have a ton more respect for that and gain more graces from God.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Karl,

      All what Pam and Stacy are saying is true. I started the group under a different name and then Brio was decided changed the name to Brio Educators, Naomi asked if she could be a moderator and I added her, I had already added Pam and Jenn. Pam, Jenn and I worked really hard organizing things, Naomi did NOTHING nor did she add anything. When they lied and had it shut down saying they owned it, I contacted Yahoo, with several emails of proof. It was put back up. Naomi lied and said it was because they had said to put it back up, she had already copied everything. I know Kyle tried to sweet talk Pam in to getting her to get me to add them back on so they could delete me. We then asked everyone to pull their stuff and to shut down the group, I asked everyone to delete themselves. Naomi opened up the other group and those that were allowed on it informed us that EVERYTHING we had was on there. I started that group because I had been teaching the longest and new teachers had nothing and I shared what I had and then others did too. It NEVER belonged to Brio.

      Delete
  17. Interesting that the briobirth.com now forwards to the facebook page which opens with a HUGE misrepresentation/lie - "we are the fastest growing Childbirth Education Company in the world" Likes on a facebook page does not equal the fastest growing CBE company.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. FYI, you can share the statement made on the FB page and make it public on your own page. I just did with this statement, "Still think the entire thing should be shut down. People are still being used here. I don't trust that this page will not be used in the future to make money off of what was to help mothers and babies. If another organization is started and people "likers" are directed to go there and like that page, then those that are controlling Brio Birth are just as bad and sneaky as the Thomases." And I do not "like" the page and could still share.

      Just thought of something else Karl that needs done and soon. You need to scrub accounts floating around the internet right now. I'm talking LinkedIn, Google+, Twitter, Pregnancy websites that have general propaganda promoting Brio. You need to do this and yes it takes time, but you can do it. I know the Google+ account is it big but you need to do the same thing there b/c it does have followers. Also, the BPI group should be edited as well so that it doesn't show support back to Brio. And then there's Naomi's run facebook pages as well that seem to all point to Brio. Another thing Karl you do know there is an "admin" Brio Birth account on facebook? Don't know who "owns" this page since it is set up as a person. https://www.facebook.com/briobirth.admin?fref=ts What are you doing with BirthLive? That appears to have Kyle's sneaky hand in it too. Is that going to go away?

      Delete
  18. I am not someone who has any connection to the Hathaways and do not have any suits or legal complaints pending. I am a teacher who trusted the lies and moved from Bradley to Bradley/Reborn/Brio and then devoted time and money to trying to grow it. I talked it up all over my state, wrote content for the workbook, contributed to the yahoogroup, mentored new teachers and ran the Facebook group that Kyle and Naomi yanked down and claimed the Hathaways sabotaged (they did this when I began asking hard questions about where the money was going and why no one was receiving compensation or contractually agreed services and was no longer drinking the Kylomi Kool Aid). I was lied to, about and publicly by them. I wish I could have back the six months I put my own professional growth on hold to work for Brio. I suffered financial loss, emotional pain, and a hit to my professional reputation by association. My feeling is that the workbook is worth nothing because so many parts of it are in dispute and that the other IP was all stolen or improperly used. I don't think there are ANY undisputed assets left and believe that the best thing to do would be to drop Brio and all work that was associated with Brio of the face of the earth. Open source sharing of improperly acquired IP simply re-injures the aggrieved educators, and frankly we all have suffered enough. I am sorry that you, like me, did not hear the siren alarms others were ringing as you became involved with Kyle. He is an excellent con man, I will give him that. He has worked his last Brio con, by convincing you to take his debts. I am truly sorry for that, but to end this sad episode I respectfully suggest that there is nothing to be done but disappear all references to Brio and delete all files of educational materials. All of it belongs to others. Kyle and Naomi never once wrote or contributed a single thing of value to the process.

    ReplyDelete
  19. "I hope that the work that do can probe itself otherwise." Well, Ivy, that's quite Freudian. I am so done with the AAHCC and Brio. Both did to me what my mother said is not proper for a nice Jersey girl to say but it begins with a big F and a big O, and rhymes with "luck" and "Rover." I just got a big kick out of the work mentioned above "probing itself," something I longed to say to both orgs but never have. When I have time I'll read the other comments above. In the meantime, I'll chuckle as I go about my day.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Karl,
    I am happy that you are starting to do the right thing, however, closing down the Brio Facebook page needs to be the next priority. It's loaded with lies and deceit and is only perpetuating the unethical nature that Brio was built on. Please Karl, do the right thing....CLOSE DOWN THE BRIO BIRTH FACEBOOK PAGE!!!!
    But, first, before you do, please explain to the "fans" what transpired and why it will be closed down. You owe it to them.

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    Replies
    1. Exactly! I'm not saying bad mouth anybody. The photo album "Little Collection of Awesomeness" has more than 1/2 the images STOLEN. In fact a few images that are no longer present there were turned in for IP infringement. And I know that to be true because I notified those artists. There are other images as well and the videos. This company was not based on anything good. You need not mention any names but do owe it to those active fans to at least say, hey, I discovered some major major unethical issues with this company.

      Delete
  21. I managed a long time ago to untangle myself from this mess after a lot of mental and emotional trauma and spending a considerable amount to be protected legally, so forgive me for being a big coward and posting anonymously when so many others are brave and using their names, but I just want to say that I completely agree with the others who are saying that this whole thing needs to just be shut down: the Facebook page, every online group that ties to, supports or otherwise recognizes Brio Birth as a legitimate organization. It is a scandal and there is absolutely nothing left to be salvaged if it has or had any connection whatsoever with the Brio name. I'm so, so happy to see someone trying to do the right thing, at long, long last.

    ReplyDelete
  22. I am very sad to have to announce that I'm in trouble. Karl reported me to my parents for not being nice enough when he was offering to sell them the assets of Brio Birth. The fact that he started off by basically telling me to control my wife, because she was shining the light on their new Ovo Birth project, I guess didn't put me in a listening mood. Really Karl? I thought you claimed to be a professional.

    Making matters even funnier is the fact that Karl in the same email also asked if they would still like to buy Brio's assets. You mean things like the workbook that you on this very blog announced that you no longer consider to be yours to sell and were removing from your holdings "I will not even consider the Brio Birth manual as a legitimate asset to the company and will remove it from my holdings."

    Really you are still offering to sell the workbook to them?

    Oh and Karl none of the Hathaways are responsible for birthscamreport, so I just saved you the expense of trying to subpoena that information. I guess your special software isn't as good as you thought.

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    Replies
    1. Robert,

      After some explanation from the group I determined that the workbook never belonged to Brio Birth; therefore, it does not belong to me. This determination came after I had replied to an email to your father.

      I was making reference to "certain inflammatory posts" which had been posted as anonymous sucker punches. The software works great! It is good to finally see your name on a post, though.

      Concerning Angela: If she cannot control herself then I certainly don't expect you to be able to stand up to her (from what I know of you). I was bringing her disrespect toward my wife to your attention. She was not provoked. Ivy was sharing something with a very small group. You make your own decisions about what is right and wrong, but such attacks speak to one's character. (Email me if you have to respond. I am trying to resolve something with people who are sincere about this.)

      Delete
    2. All Angela did was call Ivy out on her inaccuracies and incredibly bad taste for trying to create her new project from the ashes of Brio.

      My wife is proud of me, but your wife won't say the same for you.

      You don't know anything about me Kyle, I mean Karl.

      Delete
    3. You have shown me all I want to know about you, Robert. Is your wife proud that you got out of bed and got dressed today? I would suggest that she in indifferent about such menial things (as is my wife), but you have to find some way to try to twist everything you can. You feel like it gives you power. I understand your need. It seems like your wife has all the power in your relationship. But don't do anything to have your own opinion. You might find yourself looking for a divorce attorney. (Her words, not mine.)

      Delete
    4. Actually Karl my wife is proud of me for working hard to support our family, and for never working in a job where I am selling fake parking passes, using other people's IP, or changing bank accounts so I could avoid a Federal Judgment. I have a real job.

      I am also proud of her. I'm proud of the work she does for the community that Brio has been trying to destroy. I am proud of her for being a good person and mother, and I am also proud of her for not falling for the Brio scam and shining the light of truth on what Brio has done.

      Delete
    5. Blah, blah, blah Robert. You never stop. Go away so that the grown ups can talk.

      Delete
    6. I guess you've missed the point that everyone keeps telling you the same thing I have. Shut it all down. Do the right thing and shut Brio down.

      Delete
    7. And there's the dear Karl we all saw and admired. Everyone has to walk on eggshells. He can attack whoever he wants, heaven forbid someone stand up to him. He's the "good guy" after all, so he can go after the manhood of anyone who is honest. Way to show off your intentions of good will. And expecting the men to control their women... great idea in this community. Whatevs.

      Delete
    8. Anonymous: I am going through all of the posts here and trying to remove the items that have been specified. Would you prefer that I spend my limited time bickering with Robert? You have not been privy to the endless email exchange that has already taken place between me an Robert. It is more of the same, over and over again. Either you want me here or you don't. There have been many good interactions in this thread. Nothing good will come from Robert or Angela, though. They are just antagonists.

      Delete
  23. I don't think it really matters who's behind this site. We're FINALLY talking about the issues concerning all of us and for that, I am grateful to whoever restarted this site.

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    1. I am Birth Scam ReportJanuary 7, 2013 at 6:55 PM

      Those who have kids who watch Disney Channel will probably get this reference, and if you do...please join me...

      I'M RADIO REBEL! ;-)

      Delete
    2. Bless you :)!

      Delete
  24. As I consider whether or not to remove the facebook page, there are a few things that need to be considered. The first thing I am trying to determine is motivation. I understand from an artist or author's perspective that credit has not been given. I also understand that for people who were supposed to benefit in some way from their contributions they would like to have closure. I already stated my opinion that there may be certain people in this discussion who have a vested interest in making everything go away. As I consider all of this I think that there must be about 100-150 people who have worked with Brio in some capacity. I could be wrong about that, but it certainly could not be more than about 300-400.

    Now, consider the tens of thousands of fans who come to the facebook page to ask questions and get information. I have been answering question (consulting birth professionals who I have come to respect) and trying to post informative information supporting natural birth. Assuming that everything from this point forward gets credited to the original author, why not just rename the page and have somebody else continue to post and answer questions. It does seem to be a great service. For a long time I paid for articles to be written. The overwhelming response was that it was a valuable service. All of the writers did a great job. This seem like an opportunity to serve the birth community in a similar . Since that was the goal in the beginning, why not follow through and have something productive come out of the entire experience?

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    Replies
    1. I meant to say "This seems like an opportunity to serve the birth community in a similar WAY."

      Delete
    2. There are other pages that are more well informed that will fill in where the suck hole implodes. Please, just put Brio out of it's misery.

      Delete
    3. While I can appreciate that you are seriously considering your options for the Brio Birth FB page, I would highly question the ethics of doing just changing page name. Especially if it were changed to OVO Birth or any other new projects arising from the ashes of Brio Birth. While I do believe that many of those likes have been purchased or are otherwise fake, there are real people who have who "liked" that page. And those people "liked" Brio Birth...not OVO Birth, or whatever you might change it to. If you want to start a new organization, go right ahead. But start with a completely clean slate. Otherwise, it will be very hard for said project to earn the respect of the birth community. Do you really want to be "the organization formerly known as Brio?" When people in the birth community hear the name Brio, they no longer think of trains...or childbirth education. They think of Kyle and Naomi, lies, scams, frauds, etc. Do you really WANT to be associated with those things?

      Delete
  25. There are plenty of other sites and Facebook pages where folks can get good, solid information--Midwifery Today, Informed Beginnings, La Leche League, Lamaze, CAPPA, to name a few. I've wondered if the majority of questions don't come from plants. Be that as it may, I'm not going to waste time thinking about either the AAHCC or Brio. I've given away all the (poorly written and edited) Bradley material I had and there never was any Brio materials to do away with. It feels so damn good to be free of both organizations. I hope Ellen et al receive the money due them but I bid a whoppin' good riddance to both organizations and all this bickering and fighting. Y'all are like a bunch of middle schoolers. Come on. Grow up and "grow some".

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    Replies
    1. I'm with Susan. I appreciate you trying to do good with the facebook page, Karl, but there are many, many reliable and helpful resources for natural birth and parenting on facebook and on the web in general.

      The behavior of the Hathaway family representatives on this thread have all but destroyed any good feelings I had left for their organization.

      Delete
  26. Karl, THANK YOU for what you are doing. Between what's happening here and some private discussions, I am cautiously optimistic. I know that I got on something of a rant above, and while my comments were heartfelt, they were not always as respectful as they could have been. I apologize if anything I said in anger was hurtful.

    You say that you are looking to move in a direction to allow people to heal. If you are standing on that conviction, I will simply lay this out there, speaking only for myself, as a friend to several parties. One thing that would really make strides in that direction and foster a lot of good feelings and trust is to lay off your Brio Vent lawsuit. If your sole concern is for the mentions of you and your own other business efforts, I can say with reasonable assurance that Melissa would probably be happy to work with you on that, especially since her issues were with the Thomases, especially Kyle, and their scamming, and you are now showing real signs of separation from them. With Kyle and Naomi gone from the picture, she might be willing to make Brio Vent go away entirely. I'm not speaking for her in any way, just making some observations of my own, so please don't take anything I say as any kind of offer or promise - you'd have to communicate with her directly or through lawyers or whatever. It might be worth reaching out, though, to heal that piece of it.

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    Replies
    1. If a clean break from Brio is made and Brio is shut down for good, I am also willing to modify the content on this blog in order to protect outside interests. This blog is to warn of scams in the birth community and to give people a safe place to share their truth, not to channel hate or to tear anyone down. I feel that some real progress may be happening here, and it is good to see. I just had someone threaten me with legal action based on three words in an older post that I doubt anyone would have paid attention to, as they were not relevant to the spirit of the post. Here is something that I said to this person, and I urge all of you to take it to heart:

      It is truly sad that this has become almost a tool of choice for people with disagreements in our community, rather than the old-fashioned talking to each other. A simple, "I saw my name here, and I don't want it here, please remove it", would have been quite sufficient. Based on the post I am under the impression that you (possible identifying situation removed), so I'm guessing you have some sort of area of influence in the birth community. Please use that influence to help heal the rifts that have formed, and not to encourage people to threaten legal action every time there's a hair out of place. Thank you for your consideration.

      Delete
  27. http://www.values.com/inspirational-stories-tv-spots/121-Timeout

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I was hoping somebody would like that commercial. It was shown on tv while I was reading all of this, and the appropriateness of it to this "discussion" really struck me. Yes, we need a lot more civility here. Nobody will be heard, many will be misunderstood,and nothing will be accomplished by all the screaming, theatrics, threats, and RUDENESS that's going on here.

      Delete
  28. I realize I could labeled as stupid because I fell for Kyle's crap when my gut told me not to from the 2nd conversation with him. At the very least, I'm naive when it comes to "business." So forgive my stupidity when I ask Karl how he managed to get a contract when none of us who came before him did. (Or perhaps we didn't come before but never knew he existed?) Karl, you were paid? You received a salary from Brio/the Thomases?

    It seems that there are several on here who know far more about all of this than others. (I'm one of those in the "Huh?" Group.) I wish there was a place where this was all chronicled in order with all the names/positions of the players because I'm totally confused. I know I was one of many who were promised the moon, had the infamous funny tummy feelings and ignored them, but am glad I got out fairly intact and with minimal bruising. I'm scratching my head, however, on how Mr. Klinger made a living from Brio Birth when none of us ever made a dime and what he did to earn that money. His title was ...? His duties were ...? I know I can't be the only one confused.

    ReplyDelete
  29. briobirth.com needs to stop redirecting to the FB page if the FB page is going to be completely separate from Brio. And all the pictures with now-broken links, using images which may or may not be legally obtained, advertising Brio's wares need to be taken down as well.

    Karl, you could temporarily unpublish the FB page while you clean it up and reorganize it. All it takes is simply checking the box at the top of the "Manage Permissions" tab of the "Edit Page" page. It doesn't delete the page, it just makes it viewable to only admins. What you call the page is going to depend on what you want it's function to be, but at this point keeping it up and active - especially while still using the Brio name - just seems like spite. Spite directed towards the Hathaways, the birth community at large, and all those who were harmed and/or scammed by Brio.

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  30. It should also be kept in mind that shutting down the FB page for Brio is not going to stop all of the "lifting" of other people's content, nor stop the Thomases from trying to start up new scams. Naomi also owns and runs quite a few pages like Ina May Gaskin, Fans of Henci Goer, Marsden Wagner among other popular birth figures as well as their books and works. Also quite certain that she owns the World Midwives page as well. Not to mention Birth Professionals International which they attempted to monetize in the past. These need to be stopped too if we want them to stop stealing from other people.

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